[PurpleReaper]

I say "Who cares."

Peyton, when you top Dan Marino's record for TDs in a season, and he shakes your hand -- be sure to ask to see his Super Bowl rings.

where's a "sports" icon?

[fruit loop]

...and proof that the Heisman Trophy should be renamed the Kiss Of Death To Your NFL Career Award.

Look how many athletes who won the coveted Heisman have gone on to become virtual nothings in the NFL....Ron Dayne (who's heard of him the last few years?)...Chris Weinke (Damn, did the Panthers ever waste a draft pick!)...John Cappelletti (however moving his acceptance speech was, when he gave his trophy to his dying brother, he did nothing in the NFL).

One of the most productive winners who went on to be a pro was OJ Simpson....and we all know what happened to him.

The guys who were nominated for the Heisman but didn't win, like Peyton, usually go on to do very well in their pro careers.

[Fartacus]

Dude,

I watch every Colts game and there's not a man who's played the game (not Montana, Favre, Marino) who could consistently engineer scoring drives as quickly and efficiently as he does. He utterly controls the field when he's out there. He has so many great and good receivers to throw to and a great running back to mix it up.

It's too bad he doesn't have special teams and defense to help him win the Super Bowl. They damn near made it last year without either one, but the weather and the assault and battery that the Patriots' secondary was committing last year kept them out.

[PurpleReaper]

... but it doesn't matter. His coach is also a notch or two below the big time... why have Peyton tossing the rock when up by so much... why give opposing coordinators the chance to see him do things more and more in meaningless situations. The Colts may end up breaking all kinds of records, but until they show they have a great TEAM -- Peyton will be in the Marino category (by the way, not a bad category to be in) of a great QB who couldn't win the big game. Of course it matters about the rest of the team, but he's also a great QB who consistently in the big games has proven to make big mistakes. It wasn't the Colts' defense and special teams that threw 3 picks last year in the playoffs against the Pats.

.. and the Heisman trophy is fine. It is an award for the best college player not the best pro prospect, there's a difference. The award for being best pro prospct is the number one draft pick. The Heisman is great as it is... recognizing the college game. Jason White, last year's winner, candidate this year, won't do much in the NFL if he ever dresses; Matt Leinert ditto. The Utah QB (whose name escapes me) could be OK and Bush seems destined to do well in the NFL. Peterson, give him a couple more years before the next Maurice Clarett is declared... The real impact players aren't even those nominated but not winning usually, it's often the midsize or smaller schools (not on TV every week) producing talent... especially for QBs, sure you get the big school guys like Peyton and Tom Brady, but for each of them, there's a Pennington, Roethlisberger, Leftwich etc. hell, even little Manning, Eli didn't come from a football factory...

and you forgot Charlie Ward in your list of Heisman heros now making no impact in the NFL (but had a "decent" NBA career)...

"To be the man, you gotta beat the man. Whoo!" Ric Flair

[Fartacus]

It wasn't the Colts' defense and special teams that threw 3 picks last year in the playoffs against the Pats.



Nor can you totally blame Manning for them --- there was the savage mugging that Law and other Pats secondary were allowed to perpetrate on the Colts receivers without penalty time and time again.

[Rebel]

Peyton Manning will go down in the books as one of the best, but he cannot be evaluated in the context of NFL history until his career is over. That's true of all quarterbacks and any other position on the field.

There have been lots of great QB's over the years. The one measure of their brilliance is the number of championships they win. By that standard, Otto Graham is the greatest ever. He took the Cleveland Browns to ten consecutive championship games in the 1940's and 1950's, winning seven of them--an outstanding accomplishment. Today, that's equivalent to playing in ten straight Super Bowls and winning seven.

The best I have personally seen are Dan Marino and Joe Montana--Marino because of his amazingly quick pass release (he holds most NFL passing records), and Montana because of his ability to execute a game plan to perfection. They were both a pleasure to watch in action.

[cannonball]

i'm not a packers fan, but a dolphin fan since 72...to me, brett favre is the best qb ever. just step above marino, montana, unitas, and peyton.

[SageTheRage]

Longtime Redskins fan here (since 70's) and #44 John Riggins (although not a QB) was my man! I was surprised to learn that an 8x10 autographed picture of him was still going for about $300.

Sorry for the thread drift but all the talk of Dan Marino reminded me of Riggins' game-breaking, 43-yard touchdown run in the fourth quarter of Super Bowl XVII against the Dolphins.

I had to work that day and was THE ONLY one in not just the local branch but the entire corporation (large national chain) who was rooting for the Skins (or at least openly & thereby bucking the system) Needless to say I was not popular at all that day :D but after the wounds healed a bit, the regional manager made a trip down from Colorado to visit me in the AZ office and actually shook my hand in congrats for a game well played.

Ok guys, thx for the sweet trip down memory lane and now back to QB's and former Heisman trophy winners...Joe Theisman rec'd one as QB during his years with Norte Dame before being drafted by Washington Redskins. (and yeah, I know all about his lame "Norman Einstein" quote)

[fruit loop]

The BCS is all about politics and money and so is the Heisman Trophy.

They need to have playoffs. How do they know that Podunk University in Bittytown, Alaska couldn't pull a Miracle On The Turf and beat a USC or Oklahoma? We'll never find out, because it's all about politics rather than which team is actually the best. "Strength of schedule"??? Give me a break.

Lots of good players, but you have a better chance if you go to a powerhouse school and even better, if your team wins the national championship.

Chris Weinke, for example, was not the hotshot quarterback he thought he was, but he whined about "Age Discrimination" (doesn't anybody remember those remarks) keeping him out of the Heisman race, and Florida State won the national title, so they gave it to him. His competition had more talent.

It's all about $, not sports.

[SageTheRage]

It's all about $, not sports.

Yep! which is exactly why a lot of it has lost its flavor for me anymore.

[Fartacus]

Here's a great story, though, about a team that's doing it for all the right reasons -- the love of the game, very few scholarships, etc...

http://www.sf.edu/athletics/index.shtml

There was no University of St. Francis Cougars football team just a few years ago. It's a small (2,000 students) Catholic college in Ft. Wayne, Indiana. The nuns decided the college needed a team, so they hired Head Coach Kevin Donley and Defensive Coordinator Warren Maloney to start them a football program from scratch.

Within a couple of years, the Cougars were winning conference championships. They just completed their third consecutive undefeated regular season. They have been crushing opponents during the playoffs this year, mainly due to Maloney's defense. They will be playing for the NAIA National Championship on December 18.

Go Cougars!

[Giltric]

Not that I like mainstream sports, or helping build the damn stadium that so many contractors are still waiting to get paid for building.....But......

Donovan McNabb............hands down.

[PurpleReaper]

What separates a great quarterback from legendary status is the number of rings on their fingers... that's why Marino is great, hall of famer, and Montana is a legend. If I'm starting a fantasy football team, I pick Peyton, Donovan, hell Trent Green even. If I'm starting an NFL franchise, it's Brady, Favre...

and the Linc is beautiful! So what if my city-tax pays for it... god paying a special tax for living in Philly, I feel like when I was in Germany paying East German reunification taxes out of my check...

[fruit loop]

It takes a WHOLE TEAM to win a championship.

One player, no matter how good, can't carry the whole team.

It's unfair to blame an excellent player because his team doesn't win. The greatest quarterback in the world can't get to the Super Bowl if he doesn't have a good defense, running back, etc. There are many "Greats" out there who never won a Super Bowl.

This is the thing that pisses me off when someone fires a coach. Why is it the coach's fault the team doesn't produce? Don't you think that maybe it isn't the coach - your players just suck?

[PurpleReaper]

Easier to replace one coach than 53 players. I'm not saying it's right, but a good coach is worth a few wins a season. In a sport with 16 games, that's the difference between .500 and the playoffs (unless you're in the NFC where .500 is a first round bye).

From the Sports Guy on espn.com


People keep asking me why I have a grudge against Peyton Manning. Not true. I just feel like we make a mistake -- not just the media, but fans, too -- of placing too much emphasis on statistics and not enough emphasis on actual success. Certain superstars have a knack for coming through when it doesn't matter: guys like Karl Malone, A-Rod, Bonds, C-Webb, Manning, even Donovan McNabb. I would rather see us celebrating the players and teams that come through when it matters.

To me, the best example of this argument was always "Emmitt vs. Barry." Whenever people argued that Barry Sanders was better than Emmitt Smith, my head would practically explode. So you'd rather have the guy who gets tackled behind the line of scrimmage eight out of 10 times, then breaks off a 40-yard run, over the guy who rushes for five yards a pop, keeps moving those chains and gets stronger as the game goes along? You really think the Cowboys were winning those Super Bowls because of Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin? Emmitt was the heart and soul of those teams. I loved watching Barry Sanders, and he's in the Pantheon for "Guys You Should Never Bet Against," but for one game with my life on the line ... sorry, I'm taking Emmitt. No contest.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/041210

Of course one guy isn't going to be the only factor in making a team go to or win the Super Bowl, but it's the one's that get it done that go beyond the numbers when you talk about valuable players and great players.

If it's a "team" sport, why even bother focusing on the individual records for Peyton and co. Just look at the standings. When Peyton elevates his team to the next level, then he's an icon. Right now he's a damned good QB who will be playing in February, just not in Jacksonville, but in Hawai'i