[Pepper]

What Would The Pilgrims Think

I wonder what the Pilgrims would think if they were here today.

To find out the people that befriended them (Indians), had been so
maliciously treated over the years. Forced from their lands, often in acts of "Christianity".

To find the land they came to, is one of the largest homosexual
hangouts of the east, in a city they called Providence.

That values they had felt so strongly about, even to becoming
indentured servants to finance their operation to get here, are laughed at, mocked.

That the God who had preserved them, was thought to be dead by many and the enemy by the multitudes.

To find out that the name "Christian" is spoken like it had been at
Antioch, as a curse.

That religious freedom, that they held so dear, is for all who aren't
Christians.

That the Bible, is considered an enemy of the state by so many.

That the most complete set of laws (the 10 commandments) has been
removed from our legal system and the wisdom of man, which fills
libraries because no one agrees, is our modus operandi.

That stockades and punishment are unconstitutional because of the
emotional distress they cause.

That laws continue to be passed, that we are no longer allowed to train our children in the admonition of the Lord and the ways of His Word, those things we entrust to the state.

That we no longer train children, directing their path, but so
frequently we see children telling the parent how to be.

That there is no truth, no right or wrong.

That family is bad, and that it can be Adam and Steve, and not Adam and Eve.

That abortions in many states run 2 to 1 against birth. And they who held onto life, risking it all, would see life and death as casual.
Where we will abort a child at 9 months, but if a pregnant mother
throws her newborn in a trash can, its a crime.

Brothers and sisters, we need to look at our lives and the lives of
those around us. Do our lives speak Christian? Do we pray for those around us? Would we be willing to set sail, to an unknown land, across a stormy ocean, in pursuit of religious freedom? Would we endure sickness and death all about us, for the sake of the Gospel and the promise of a faithful God.

Would you give your all, even to the point of being a servant to carry out the direction of God in your life? Does the concept of communal living, bringing it all to the family, as outlined in the Book of Acts, chapter 2, seem foreign to you, even out of touch? These people brought their collective skills, finances and gifts together, to succeed in a land where only the promise of God, could sustain them.

As I think about the men and women, who braved the oceans, fighting for life, and liberty, I think how comfortable my life really is.

They who had "nothing", came together to give thanks to a Father who loved them. To celebrate a victory. To say "thanks, God".

When you bow your head today, reflect on what it means to give thanks. Even when the chips are down, my life is easy compared to the things that occurred in the early 1600's of this country.

May God bless you and keep you, as you go through your day.

From: wildfire@comeholyspirit.com

[fruit loop]

They came here for religious freedom, but set about taking it away from everyone else. They instituted religious law and only THEIR religion was "The Right One." They tortured and imprisoned people for "heresy" or expelled them.

Stocks aren't used because they were TORTURE. Try standing in one for just ten minutes. It was also customary to nail the person's ears to the stocks or brand them on one cheek, depending upon the offense. STOCKADES exposed people to the elements and the torments of onlookers (stones, rotten fruit, manure, spit etc were acceptable to throw)

They thought the Indians were pagan savages.

They treated women and girls like crap.

Read up on Pilgrim history. They really weren't that nice

[Flint]

fruit loop has basically nailed it. The pilgrims and puritans didn't come here to exercise religious freedom, they came because they were unable to impose their rather anal beliefs on everyone in Europe, but could do so here. The goal was the exact opposite of freedom of religion, it was to force the One True Religion on everyone and get away with it.

So I think it would be most marvelously educational for Pepper if we could send her back to live with the pilgrims for a few months (assuming she wasn't stoned to death sooner for details (called "heresies") of doctrinal dispute.) At the very least, it would temporarily raise the average level of intelligence on this forum.

[Anita]

of Americans to see nudity and sexuality as forbidden?

There's a SHARP contrast in how Europeans view nudity and sexuality, and all my life, I've been told that this is due to the Puritan influence. ?????

[fruit loop]

Puritan women were required to cover themselves completely, including their hair. (this carried on down into the 19th century. No decent woman went out of her house with her arms uncovered, or without a hat/bonnet, or gloves) They could only wear stark colors. Lace, braid, etc were forbidden.

Sex was evil, including the marriage bed.

Remember "The Scarlet Letter"? That was typical. A man could get off from charges of promiscuity or adultery by claiming the woman "tempted" him. This was also used in a lot of rape cases.

In some communities church lasted all day and everyone was required to attend. It was a criminal offense not to. Some communities also banned laughter and even smiling on Sunday.

[Plaid-Man Individual]

And this is the heritage Falwell, Bush et al, Scalia and most Christian Americans wish to re-institute? :freakout:

A little educational material can go a long way in enlightening the misguided. :beer:

[Johnny]

What they did was incredibly brave. It's modern day equivilant may be moving to the jungle or the moon.

Imagine what they went through just dealing with the elements. The cold, the heat, the rain, the lack of rain, the noreastern's.

They amount of labor it took just to live. Cutting the wood to build with. hand plowing the land, Digging wells, fishing-hunting where do you do these things you're new here, were's a good spot?

They left civilization behind, while it was Europe of the 1600's it was the best civilization they knew. They had no guarentee they would even make it across. There was only so much they could load up and bring with them.

Sure they may have had some tyrantical religious rules but putting that aside the ones who survived accomplished a tremendous feat.

Could we do the same?

[Pepper]

The Pilgrims as People:
Understanding the Plymouth Colonists

by James Baker, former Director of Research

The people we know as the Pilgrims have become so surrounded with legends that we tend to forget that they were real people. Against great odds, they courageously made the famous 1620 voyage and founded the first New England colony, but they were still ordinary English men and women, not super heroes. If we really want to understand them, we must try to look behind the legends and see them as they saw themselves.

They were English people who sought to escape the religious controversies and economic problems of their time by emigrating to America. Many of the Pilgrims were members of a Puritan sect known as Separatists. They believed that membership in the Church of England violated the biblical precepts for true Christians, and that they had to break away and form independent congregations which were truer to divine requirements. At a time when Church and State were one, such an act was treasonous and the Separatists had to flee their mother country. Other Pilgrims remained loyal to the national Church but came because of economic opportunity and a sympathy with Puritanism as well. They all shared a fervent and pervasive Protestant faith that touched all areas in their life.

As English people, the Pilgrims also shared a vital secular culture, both learned and traditional. They lived in a time which accepted fairies and witches, herbal remedies and astrological virtues, seasonal festivals and folklore as real parts of their lives. They looked at the world they lived in not as we do today, through the eyes of Einstein and Freud, but through the folklore of the countryside and academic traditions that stretched back to antiquity. They were both the thorough Protestants of the recent Reformation and the inheritors of the Medieval world picture that infused the imaginations of Shakespeare and Jonson.

They were not people just like ourselves dressed in funny clothes, or a primitive folk deprived of our technology, but a vital and courageous people who embodied the best elements of their exciting society. They brought their own culture to the New World and attempted to establish a citadel of English society on the edge of the alien continent. They were not pioneers self-consciously blazing a trail through the trackless wilderness to the future. They were English men and women doing their best to continue the lives they knew back home in spite of the unfamiliar surroundings.

They brought with them familiar customs, among which were an autumn secular harvest celebration and a Puritan religious Thanksgiving holy day. As we shall see, these two events were totally separate and independent in their minds. It is we, today, who have blurred the differences and merged the two events into one. A secular celebration such as a harvest was an annual event which would of course include the giving of religious thanks to God; acknowledgement of God’s Providence was part of most days of their lives. A true Day of Thanksgiving was a completely separate observance.

When the Puritans rejected the old Medieval ecclesiastical calendar of Christmas, Easter and Saint’s days, they submitted three allowable holy days: The Sabbath, the Day of Humiliation and Fasting, and the Day of Thanksgiving and Praise. The latter two were never held on a regular basis but only in direct response to God’s Providence. When things went well, signaling God’s pleasure with the community, then it was proper to declare a Day of Thanksgiving in His praise. But when God’s displeasure was evident and events were unfortunate, it was an indication that the community should repent and declare a Day of Fasting and Humiliation. Each of these days were held on weekdays and meant an extra day of church services and devotion in addition to the Sabbath. The Day of Thanksgiving was often concluded with a feast, while the fast days saw voluntary privation.

The harvest celebration of autumn, 1621, was quite plainly neither a fast day nor a thanksgiving day in the eyes of the Pilgrims. Rather it was a secular celebration which included games, recreations, three days of feasting and Indian guests. It would have been unthinkable to have these things as part of a religious Thanksgiving. The actual first declared Thanksgiving occurred in 1623, after a providential rain shower saved the colony’s crops.

It was only in the later 19th century, when looking back for a precedent for the modern, more secular Thanksgiving of family feasts and football games which had evolved after the decline of Puritanism, that people discovered this first harvest celebration and dubbed it the "First Thanksgiving." They were not interested in what that famous festival meant to the Pilgrims; they were concerned with what it could mean to Victorians like themselves.

Ever since, the Pilgrims have been the symbolic originators of our familiar November holiday. Legends about the feast have turned it into a mythic event worthy of our emulation. It is a good story, and an important part of our cultural tradition. It helps us remember those hardy English men and women who braved dangers far greater than we have to face today to follow their own consciences and give glory to God. But if we really want to understand them, we must go beyond the legend, important as it is, and try to see the real Pilgrims and the celebration they enjoyed so many years ago.


http://www.plimoth.org/learn/history/colonists/PilgrimPeople.asp

[Plaid-Man Individual]

Sure they may have had some tyrantical religious rules but putting that aside the ones who survived accomplished a tremendous feat. But that is the whole counterpoint. Their religious customs, beliefs, rules and actions were tyrannical, abusive, intolerant, and totally mid-evil.

And humans everywhere have been surviving since the beginning of the species... the ones that lived survived; the ones that died died... no great or spectacular feat there.

[Pepper]

fruit loop has basically nailed it. The pilgrims and puritans didn't come here to exercise religious freedom, they came because they were unable to impose their rather anal beliefs on everyone in Europe, but could do so here. The goal was the exact opposite of freedom of religion, it was to force the One True Religion on everyone and get away with it.

So I think it would be most marvelously educational for Pepper if we could send her back to live with the pilgrims for a few months (assuming she wasn't stoned to death sooner for details (called "heresies") of doctrinal dispute.) At the very least, it would temporarily raise the average level of intelligence on this forum.

Flint, I tend to ignore rude, and narrow-minded people, such as yourself. You as well as fruitloop, have lump every pilgrim and puritan into one mold. Not everyone of them that came here where blood thirsty, witch hunters. I provided a little bit of info that explains why some of them where the way there where. Might be educational for you to read it and try putting yourself in their shoes. It might even raise (temporarily of course) the average level of intelligence here, and widen your narrow-mind a tad. Wouldn't that be nice for us all?
;)

[Johnny]

I'm not arguing a counterpoint, I affirming an appreciation for what they did.

Not an apprciation out of oweing them anything but rather the monumental feat they pulled off. The one's who lived anyway.

We are so far removed from the skill set these people had. None of us have any idea how much we depend on the mercy of the elements, except for maybe the amish.

[Flint]

Pepper:

Unlike you, I respond to ignorant, bigoted, and narrow-minded people. Deal with it.

Fruit loop and I pointed out, accurately, that the religious requirements of the puritans were very restrictive and rigidly enforced. Yes, I realize they were full 3-dimensional human beings as well. You might try that yourself sometime. But since I have the time, perhaps you might appreciate some idea of what I tried to say. I should have known you couldn't grasp it without your hands held very carefully. So follow the bouncing ball...

I wonder what the Pilgrims would think if they were here today.

Of course, nobody can really say. However, if we have a really strong agenda to preach, we can put words in their mouths which of course aren't their words or reactions, but rather the words that reflect our own particular preferences and beliefs. As we shall soon see...

To find out the people that befriended them (Indians), had been so
maliciously treated over the years. Forced from their lands, often in acts of "Christianity".

How do WE feel about this? But I read that the peace between pilgrims and Indians lasted for about 50 years, after which it was war. But Christians are entirely normal people in this respect: They do what is right if they do say so themselves. The Indians occupied land they wanted.

To find the land they came to, is one of the largest homosexual hangouts of the east, in a city they called Providence.

What in the world does this have to do with the pilgrims? Sounds to me like you've been trained to hate homosexuals (whom you have probably never met in person, to your knowledge. If I were homosexual, it wouldn't take me long to learn not to share this with you...) I neither know nor care how the puritans regarded homosexuality (is there any record?). But I know how today's fundies regard it -- with fear and loathing.

That values they had felt so strongly about, even to becoming indentured servants to finance their operation to get here, are laughed at, mocked.

Come now. When was the last time you heard anyone mock the values of the puritans? When was the last time anyone even mentioned the puritans, except that they started the Thanksgiving tradition? But if you're talking about the political power to FORCE everyone to obey a rather narrow religious view, some people are willing to suffer severely to gain this power. Today, we call them fanatics. They fly airplanes into skyscrapers.

That the God who had preserved them, was thought to be dead by many and the enemy by the multitudes.

This is half nonsense and half bull****. They weren't "preserved by God", most of the original colonists didn't make it through the winter. Today, the US is the most religious and self-righteous nation on earth. The number of Americans claiming to be Christians is about 85%, the highest percentage of any nation, any time, anywhere. Those regarding the Christian God as dead or the enemy can only be a few percent at best. These are the "multitudes"? In your extravagant rhetoric, you have abandoned honesty and accuracy. Does that bother you? Does the Bible approve of lying for Jesus?

To find out that the name "Christian" is spoken like it had been at Antioch, as a curse.

Where? Most Christians are genuinely good people. Most PEOPLE are genuinely good people. I suspect what we have here is what I call "Christian persecution complex", or perhaps Christian allergy to equality. Recently, Christians have been losing their unique special favors and privileges, haven't been permitted to cut to the front of every line, and must deal with the law and government and other organizations as equals with everyone else. Oh, the horror, the horror!

That religious freedom, that they held so dear, is for all who aren't Christians.

Yup, just as I suspected. Religious freedom is now equal for everyone, including those who (gasp!) aren't even Christian! To the Pepper-type Christian, religious freedom means the freedom to belong to the Christian denomination of your choice, freedom to carve Christian slogans into marble above doorways and in courthouses, freedom to pray to the Christian God in classrooms, freedom to have the Christian god worshipped in public parks, and on our money, and in our patriotic pledges, and, *most important of a;;*, freedom NOT to permit ANY OTHER RELIGION these same privileges. And if anyone of any other belief wants the slightest equality? AAACK! They're taking away my freedom!

That the Bible, is considered an enemy of the state by so many.

Wow, we have a truly metastasized case of Christian Persecution Complex going out of control here. Just think: the Bible is now being regarded as a religious and not a political document! Can you imagine such a thing? Can you imagine atheists and Jews and Wiccans and other such trash actually recognized as equals in the eyes of the state? That must mean...it must mean the State has rejected the Bible! What else could it mean? What, the Bible was never a government document? Nah, that's not possible. This USED to be a Christian country. What, there's no evidence of that? Well, there SHOULD be!

That the most complete set of laws (the 10 commandments) has been removed from our legal system and the wisdom of man, which fills libraries because no one agrees, is our modus operandi.

And here we go again. The 10 commandments was NEVER part of our legal system. Instead, our legal system grants equal rights to everyone. That grant, I admit, includes that very baffling and confusing word: equal. You mean, the Christian faith is NOT the American legal system? You mean, other faiths get to have citizens as well? Intolerable! Equal means, everyone has the equal right to become a Christian, OR ELSE! Doesn't it? It USED to, didn't it? Well it SHOULD have!

That stockades and punishment are unconstitutional because of the emotional distress they cause.

What is considered cruel and unusual punishment is intensely cultural. The stocks were usual in one culture, cutting off the thief's hands is usual in another culture. And I'll go along with this complaint myself. We need to do a better job of having the punishment fit the crime.

That laws continue to be passed, that we are no longer allowed to train our children in the admonition of the Lord and the ways of His Word, those things we entrust to the state.

This is simply a lie! Show me a law, ANY law, that says you can't pass your religion on to your children. If you can, I will apologize. If you can't then I expect YOU to apologize. Of course, I don't expect it, considering the lengthy list of dishonest statements we're examining here.

That we no longer train children, directing their path, but so frequently we see children telling the parent how to be.

I'm not sure what this even means. Of course we train our children. Of course we direct their path -- at least, most of us do, if we are responsible parents. Find me a child telling his parent how to be.

That there is no truth, no right or wrong.

This is stupid crybaby stuff, nothing deeper. Of course there is truth, right and wrong. You are just kvetching because people disagree about what's true, what's right and what's wrong, and therefore we have to cooperate and compromise and adjust and adapt. In your dreams, you would just simply MAKE everyone do things YOUR way, and all these disagreements would just go away quietly, right? But in the real world, there are countless truths, and lots of different rights and wrongs, and we have to communicate.

That family is bad, and that it can be Adam and Steve, and not Adam and Eve.

I haven't yet seen anyone argue that the family is bad. If you can find a single example of this, no matter how weird or far out in left field, let's see it. But of course, you seem to be using "family" as some kind of code word to vent your hatred of homosexuality. I think we're back in the horror of equality here -- that other people with other ways are no better or worse than you are. Some of them might be equal enough to hate your bigotry right back.

That abortions in many states run 2 to 1 against birth. And they who held onto life, risking it all, would see life and death as casual. Where we will abort a child at 9 months, but if a pregnant mother throws her newborn in a trash can, its a crime.

It's not clear what you're bitching about here. Abortion is (thankfully) a legal right of American citizens that the fanatics can't currently take away from them. Imagine allowing rights to other people! Positively unChristian! I admit, some of the laws are inconsistent, but they are inconsistent because the fanatics have won some political battles and lost others.

Brothers and sisters, we need to look at our lives and the lives of those around us.

This error lies at the heart of the problem. You certainly need to look at your own life. And that's IT! You do not need to look at anyone else's life. That's THEIR business. Do you want them looking at yours, finding fault, and trying to force you to live their way? How about a little golden rule here?

Do our lives speak Christian? Do we pray for those around us? Would we be willing to set sail, to an unknown land, across a stormy ocean, in pursuit of religious freedom? Would we endure sickness and death all about us, for the sake of the Gospel and the promise of a faithful God.

But as has been pointed out, that's not what happened. Like most Christian sects, the puritans wanted to impose their doctrines on everyone around them by sheer physical force, and were willing to suffer greatly for the power to do so. You can pray yourself silly (or sillier, actually) and I won't mind. Just so long as you don't try to meddle with my life and I extend to you the same courtesy, we'll get along.

[Pepper]

First off Flint, I did not write the article. I just posted it. I did not indorse it.
I just post it. Next thing I know, I am being jumped on as if I wrote the thing myself. Debates, are not my bag. (remember I am not intelligent). I simply enjoy posting news stories, and articles with different views. I leave the debating up to the debators.

Second, I do know homosexuals. In fact two of my best friends where\are homosexuals. One died of aids, back in 1986. I still miss him.

Thirdly, I didn't try to meddle in your life until you went off the wall and meddled in mine. And not only did you meddle, you also insulted me.

I'm willing to call a truce if you are. It is up to you. Take it or leave it. Doesn't really matter to me. But next time you go jumping on me because of something I post you could at least ask if I agree with it first before you go yapping away on your keyboard.

Pepper

[fruit loop]

Although I have a Mayflower ancestor (Isaac Allerton and Fear Brewster), I'm proudest of my Jamestown ancestor, Captain Thomas Graves, who got here in 1609.....a couple of decades before the Pilgrims. He helped found a little piece of heaven on earth called VIRGINIA that produced half the signers of the Declaration of Independence, several presidents and too many American soldier heroes to count. (And that's just my lily white progenitors. My Indians were here first)

So I think I'm entitled to make any kind of remarks I choose about the pilgrims, but especially since it's true....they were religious bigots.

Read up on it yourself. I believed all the pablum I was spoon fed in school, until I got old enough to research for myself and found out it WAS PC pablum.

Yeah, the pilgrims were brave.....but so were all the immigrants who came here and hacked a livelihood out of the wilderness. Most of those managed to do it without becoming people who did things that were ANYTHING but truly Christian.

[Pepper]

fruitloop, you can make any remark about the Pilgrims, you wish too. I can trace my ancestors back to the 1600's too. I still say, the entire lot of Pilgrims should not be lumped in one sum. They where not all bad. Most of them where good people just wanting a better life. There always has been, and always will be, some who give good people a bad name. Take the Southern's. You got a few rednecks who don't like black people. Therefore, Southern's are all lump in one sum with "them". The truth of the matter is black and whites get along and respect each other in the South. But, if you believe the media, and movies you would never think so. A few bad apples can convience people the entire basket of apples is ruined. Do you understand what I am saying?

Peace,
Pepper

[Flint]

Pepper:

I agree that the Pilgrims, like people everywhere, are individuals and vary from one another in important ways. I also recognize that they were all part of their times, which were entirely different from our times, and it's not entirely accurate to judge them according to standards very different from their own.

However, your original post made no editorial comment of your own, not even a "here is what someone else thinks, what reaction to you have to it?" sort of comment. So the only reasonable interpretation of your post was that you were endorsing the sentiments being expressed. I have never, ever seen anyone post something with which they disagreed, without saying so or distancing themselves from it somehow.

And without any question, the original post expressed an entirely unfair and narrow-minded bigotry. It basically said nothing about the Pilgrims, instead using the occasion of Thanksgiving to vent intolerance and hatred.

So are you now saying you do NOT agree with those sentiments, and that you posted it without the thought ever crossing your mind that someone might assume you were trying to say something rather than just consuming bandwidth? OK, from now on, I'll ask you if you have even READ what you post. But in this case, how about if you comment on what your pasted post says. What do YOU think about these things?

[fruit loop]

Thanksgiving

Thanksgiving. The official beginning to the holiday season. A chance for all of us who forget to do so on a regular basis to pause and say thanks. We all need to be thankful every day.

It turns out that Thanksgiving, just for your information, did not start with a bunch of pilgrims and native Americans in Massachusetts. In fact, it is very much a Southern-spawned event. In Virginia, one year and 17 days prior to the landing of the Pilgrims in Massachusetts, thirty-eight men from Berkeley Parish in England prayed thanks for their safe arrival to the New World and proclaimed that day as a day of Thanksgiving to be celebrated every year thereafter.

The first Thanksgiving occurred when Captain John Woodlief led the newly arrived English colonists to a grassy slope along the James River and instructed them to drop to their knees and pray in thanks for a safe arrival to the New World. On that day, Dec. 4, 1619, these 38 men from Berkeley Parish in England were given the instructions:

"Wee ordaine that the day of our ships arrivall at the place assigned for plantacon in the land of Virginia shall be yearly and perpetually keept holy as a day of Thanksgiving to Almighty God."

Thanksgiving has been an evolving event, first proclaimed by the Continental Congress in 1777, but as a December holiday. The first Thanksgiving in November came with a proclamation on Oct. 11, 1782, "commanding the observation of Thursday, the twenty-eighth of November next, as a day of solemn Thanksgiving to God for all his mercies."

They say this one below was done before the one by Lincoln.

Then, in 1861 the new Confederacy celebrated Thanksgiving in November, by order of the President:

A THANKSGIVING PROCLAMATION, '61.

WHEREAS, it hath pleased Almighty God, the Sovereign Disposer of events, to protect and defend us hitherto in our conflicts with our enemies as to be unto them a shield.

And whereas, with grateful thanks we recognize His hand and acknowledge that not unto us, but unto Him, belongeth the victory, and in humble dependence upon His almighty strength, and trusting in the justness of our purpose, we appeal to Him that He may set at naught the efforts of our enemies, and humble them to confusion and shame.

Now therefore, I, Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States, in view of impending conflict, do hereby set apart Friday, the 15th day of November, as a day of national humiliation and prayer, and do hereby invite the reverend clergy and the people of these Confederate States to repair on that day to their homes and usual places of public worship, and to implore blessing of Almighty God upon our people, that he may give us victory over our enemies, preserve our homes and altars from pollution, and secure to us the restoration of peace and prosperity.

Given under hand and seal of the Confederate States at Richmond, this the 31st day of October, year of our Lord, one thousand eight hundred and sixty one.

By the President, JEFFERSON DAVIS.

[Pepper]

Thank you fruitloop.

And thank you Flint. You taught me an important lesson. In the future if I post something like this post again, I'll add my comment on what I think of these things.

Pepper

[Flint]

Pepper:

Why not start right now. What do you think abut the sentiments you yourself posted? Anything?

[nanna]

What Would The Pilgrims Think

Well, I have no clue as to what they would think, but, if you wish to read, I'll tell you about what *I* think

I wonder what the Pilgrims would think if they were here today.

Why is the author expressing his/her opinions in the disguise of "what Pilgrims would think"?

To find out the people that befriended them (Indians), had been so
maliciously treated over the years. Forced from their lands, often in acts of "Christianity".

I think that what our ancestors did to the Native peoples is horrible. I don't know if it was done in the name of "Christianity" per se, but it wouldn't surprise me, as it seems that many think that having "God" on *their* side makes doing anything okay, so long as some egotistically-motivated interpretation of the "bible" can be used to provide some rationale for their actions. What do "manifest destiny" and the "chosen ones" have in common? Hmmmm...

To find the land they came to, is one of the largest homosexual
hangouts of the east, in a city they called Providence.

Providence, RI? Moreso than Manhattan? Baltimore? Philadelphia? Boston? Fire Island?????

That values they had felt so strongly about, even to becoming
indentured servants to finance their operation to get here, are laughed at, mocked.

Mocked? Even in the "liberal press" I haven't come across anyone mocking what might be called "American Family Values".

That the God who had preserved them, was thought to be dead by many and the enemy by the multitudes.

Aside from a lyric in a heavy metal song, I don't recall ever hearing anyone say "God is Dead." Maybe that God has no meaning, or doesn't exist. The enemy? Multitudes? Is the author talking about Jihadists here or what?

To find out that the name "Christian" is spoken like it had been at
Antioch, as a curse.

Got to include that "Christian persecution" thingy, musn't leave that out.

That religious freedom, that they held so dear, is for all who aren't
Christians.

Phuleeeze. More "Christian persecution". Christians have the same rights as another other religion here in the States. The problem seems to be that somehow "religious freedom" for Christians here in the USA seems to be confused with the misplaced notion that Christianity is the religion of the State(s) if not a defacto State Religion, and therefore should be supported with taxpayer dollars. Those of you who can, are referred to the volume of threads on other boards devoted to this very topic.

That the Bible, is considered an enemy of the state by so many.

See above.

That the most complete set of laws (the 10 commandments) has been
removed from our legal system and the wisdom of man, which fills
libraries because no one agrees, is our modus operandi.

I never cease to be amazed by how many "Christians" confuse their Law with man's laws. What perversion. (IMO)

That stockades and punishment are unconstitutional because of the
emotional distress they cause.

Ah, yes, we were talking of Pilgrims here, weren't we. Happy F***ing Thanksgiving, to you too.

That laws continue to be passed, that we are no longer allowed to train our children in the admonition of the Lord and the ways of His Word, those things we entrust to the state.

It seems the author is saying, here (the construction is a bit oblique), that training of children is entrusted to the state. What a liberal thing to say! I think that the state is responsible for *education* and the PARENTS are responsible for what we used to call "home training". You want responsible, moral kids? Bring them up that way.

That we no longer train children, directing their path, but so
frequently we see children telling the parent how to be.

See above. And, if you really care, interact in public situations, where you see a child way out of line. I can't begin to tell you how often I've given a child "the look" when they were running up and down aisles on the train, and have them *immediately* stop what they were doing, meanwhile mommy or daddy is chatting away on the mobile phone, oblivious to their child.

That there is no truth, no right or wrong.

There is truth and there is Truth. However, nobody's allowed to define either for me, but me.

That family is bad, and that it can be Adam and Steve, and not Adam and Eve.

How's about Cain and Abel?

That abortions in many states run 2 to 1 against birth. And they who held onto life, risking it all, would see life and death as casual.
Where we will abort a child at 9 months, but if a pregnant mother
throws her newborn in a trash can, its a crime.

I personally am against taking life, unless I consume it.

Brothers and sisters, we need to look at our lives and the lives of
those around us.

Damn right you do.

Do our lives speak Christian? Do we pray for those around us? Would we be willing to set sail, to an unknown land, across a stormy ocean, in pursuit of religious freedom? Would we endure sickness and death all about us, for the sake of the Gospel and the promise of a faithful God.

I don't think so. At least so far as the author is concerned!

Would you give your all, even to the point of being a servant to carry out the direction of God in your life? Does the concept of communal living, bringing it all to the family, as outlined in the Book of Acts, chapter 2, seem foreign to you, even out of touch? These people brought their collective skills, finances and gifts together, to succeed in a land where only the promise of God, could sustain them.

I do consider myself a servant of the Holy.

As I think about the men and women, who braved the oceans, fighting for life, and liberty, I think how comfortable my life really is.

As do I. There is not a day which passes, where I do not offer a prayer of thankfulness.

They who had "nothing", came together to give thanks to a Father who loved them. To celebrate a victory. To say "thanks, God".

When you bow your head today, reflect on what it means to give thanks. Even when the chips are down, my life is easy compared to the things that occurred in the early 1600's of this country.

Yep, this was all about Pilgrims.

May God bless you and keep you, as you go through your day.

From: wildfire@comeholyspirit.com[/QUOTE]

Edit to add: Pepper, please feel free to use this as a template for your response. I, too, look forward to hearing your opinions on this author's essay.



nanna

[Pepper]

Thank you nana. I will be posting what I think soon.

Pepper

[Pepper]

here you go Flint and nana

What Would The Pilgrims Think

I Honestly don’t know what the pilgrims would think having never met them. They would probably freak out and be amazed by all of our “gadgets”. ;0)

I wonder what the Pilgrims would think if they were here today.

Why is the author expressing his/her opinions in the disguise of "what Pilgrims would think"?

I can only “assume” in the authors mind the pilgrims where more moral than today’s society. And is therefore trying to show how differently morals where back then compared to today.

To find out the people that befriended them (Indians), had been so
maliciously treated over the years. Forced from their lands, often in acts of "Christianity".

The Native American’s where forced off their lands more due to greed than any ‘ acts’ ,of Christianity.

To find the land they came to, is one of the largest homosexual
hangouts of the east, in a city they called Providence.

Providence, was possibly used by the author as an example because the name means, divine care, or guidance.

That values they had felt so strongly about, even to becoming
indentured servants to finance their operation to get here, are laughed at, mocked.

Since the author did not list what “values” he\she consider are being laughed at, mocked, I can not answer this.

That the God who had preserved them, was thought to be dead by many and the enemy by the multitudes.

The author leaves one wondering which god he\she is referring to. If the author is referring to the God of the Holy Bible, he\she is incorrect saying the enemy (who I assume is meant to be Satan) believes that God is dead. The Bible does not support this view.

To find out that the name "Christian" is spoken like it had been at
Antioch, as a curse.

The name “Christian” isn’t spoken of like it is a curse. The Christian person, is instead cursed many time by those who don’t share their beliefs.

That religious freedom, that they held so dear, is for all who aren't
Christians.

I do not agree with this. I am still able to worship in this country freely.

That the Bible, is considered an enemy of the state by so many.

It is not the Bible that is considered an enemy of the state it is the” pretend” Christians that try to force their beliefs on others that is the enemy. Jesus never forces himself on anyone and it is wrong for these so called “pretend Christians to do so. .

That the most complete set of laws (the 10 commandments) has been
removed from our legal system and the wisdom of man, which fills
libraries because no one agrees, is our modus operandi.

If everyone would follow the 10 commandments we would need no other laws. But that is not going to happen in this imperfect, world. Therefore we must have man made laws to also follow.

That stockades and punishment are unconstitutional because of the
emotional distress they cause.

I think the author of this is nuts to even hint that stockades should be used on anyone!
Lasts time I heard we still have punishment for those who break the law.

That laws continue to be passed, that we are no longer allowed to train our children in the admonition of the Lord and the ways of His Word, those things we entrust to the state.

I do not nor ever have entrust, the state to raise my children. If the author is doing so, he\she needs to stop griping if he\she isn’t going to put a stop to it.


That we no longer train children, directing their path, but so
frequently we see children telling the parent how to be.

This is true. But, if parents aren’t going to be parents, they should expect their children to treat them this way. I’ve given more than a few unruly children “The Look” too Nana.
Usually works like a charm.

That there is no truth, no right or wrong.

Wrong! There will always be truth. There will always be right or wrong for as long as man walks upon the earth.

That family is bad, and that it can be Adam and Steve, and not Adam and Eve.

I think the author watches to, many soap operas.

That abortions in many states run 2 to 1 against birth. And they who held onto life, risking it all, would see life and death as casual.
Where we will abort a child at 9 months, but if a pregnant mother
throws her newborn in a trash can, its a crime.

I personally am against taking life.

Brothers and sisters, we need to look at our lives and the lives of
those around us.

The author doesn’t say why we need to look at our lives and the lives of those around us.
For me to answer this doesn’t make sense if I don’t know what the heck he\she is wanting me to look at.

Do our lives speak Christian? Do we pray for those around us? Would we be willing to set sail, to an unknown land, across a stormy ocean, in pursuit of religious freedom? Would we endure sickness and death all about us, for the sake of the Gospel and the promise of a faithful God.

I pray for those around me. I’m will to follow where God leads. I could endure sickness. When death comes I have no choice but to endure it.

Would you give your all, even to the point of being a servant to carry out the direction of God in your life? Does the concept of communal living, bringing it all to the family, as outlined in the Book of Acts, chapter 2, seem foreign to you, even out of touch? These people brought their collective skills, finances and gifts together, to succeed in a land where only the promise of God, could sustain them.

see above

As I think about the men and women, who braved the oceans, fighting for life, and liberty, I think how comfortable my life really is.

I pray through out the day for these men and women.

They who had "nothing", came together to give thanks to a Father who loved them. To celebrate a victory. To say "thanks, God".

When you bow your head today, reflect on what it means to give thanks. Even when the chips are down, my life is easy compared to the things that occurred in the early 1600's of this country.

I’m thankful everyday. For me it is not a once a year thing.

May God bless you and keep you, as you go through your day.

From: wildfire@comeholyspirit.com[/QUOTE

[SmartAZ]

Their religious customs, beliefs, rules and actions were tyrannical, abusive, intolerant, and totally mid-evil.
Well DUH! Let's substitue some synonyms:

"Their religious customs, beliefs, rules and actions were single-minded, demanding, strictly enforced, and totally (what the he!! does 'mid-evil' mean?)."

Those are exactly the characteristics required for pioneers. Let's remember that Europe and England wanted empires in those days, and all their schools were working very hard to crank out leaders. Your words are a perfect description of what's required of the leaders of an empire. Of course they were all those things. They wouldn't have survived if they hadn't been!



Note to Flint: Mind your manners.

[Darkimbolc]

What Would The Pilgrims Think

They would think I would make a mighty-nice lawn torch. Not my idea of fun.

[Darkimbolc]

(Dupe post, deleted)

[fruit loop]

....in fact, nobody was a "real" Christian except them......

....I think being a pilGRIM was exactly that....really grim

[Robert]

"Christianity is a great religion, to bad no one lives by it."

Gandhi