[Watchman63]

As a former atheist, I learned much about the pagan origins of our traditional Christmas celebrations. I have no problem with family get-togethers during the "holiday season". When it comes to associating it all with the birth of Jesus Christ, well, that I have a problem with.

To me, it seems like Christmas celebrations can be compared to a birthday party where everyone forgot to invite the birthday person, or even to ask how they might like their birthday celebrated.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way to celebrate the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is by loving Him and obeying Him, particularly the commandments to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength; and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus goes into great detail about all of this in John 14-17, and the book of 1st John goes into even more detail.

Holidays, get-togethers of family and friends are all great, but lets not fool ourselves that it has anything to do with the life of Jesus Christ and His purpose in coming for the salvation of man.

Christians, pagans, and atheists are all welcome to reply to this thread.

[Watchman63]

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd80.htm

WHAT'S IT ALL ABOUT...ALFIE?


By: Devvy

November 29, 2004

NewsWithViews.com

"What's it all about Alfie, is it just for the moment we live?" That's the opening line to one of Dionne Warwick's signature songs. I was reminded of these lyrics when I saw head lines reporting the American people had spent $8 billion dollars the day after Thanksgiving for "Christmas."

Eight billion dollars in one day. - for what? While I believe after much research that our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, wasn't born on December 25th, but probably sometime in September, most people acknowledge His birth on that date. A little over two thousand years ago, three wise men visited the Christ child in a stable bearing gifts. These three wise men (Magi) are called Gaspar, Melchior, and Balthasar by Western Christians. Melchior offered gold to the Lord as he would to a King. The younger, Gaspar, honored baby Jesus as God with incense, denoted a gift worthy of divinity. Balthasar, the third Magi, gave myrrh which declared the Son of Man who was to die.

Somehow this noble, solemn and historic event has morphed into Americans stampeding to stores to buy birthday presents for each other to celebrate the birth of Jesus. Our nightly news here in Sacramento showed film clips marking this "celebration of the birth of Jesus" of women pushing and shoving at a sale table trying to get the best deal on junk from Communist China or Communist Hong Kong.

Other film clips allowed the viewer to see people lined up in front of big chain stores hours before they opened to get the best bargain. I wonder how many of those people would ever line up for hours outside a church to give homage to God? As I watched this nauseating behavior, I thought of those words from Ms. Warwick's song, "...is it just for the moment we live?"

Every year at this time, the herding technique is kicked into full swing by the great programmer (TV) and Americans shell out billions of dollars in celebration of what? A friend reminded me of a passage from the King James Bible;

"For the customs of the people are vain; for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the worked of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." -- Jeremiah 10:3 and 10:4:

Kind of reminds me of Christmas trees. Yes, they are beautiful, but what does it really mean? What is all this hurry up and buy each other presents to put under a tree every December 25th? What does all this buying of expensive jewelry, clothing and cheap, plastic toys made in foreign countries have to do with celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ?

Some will argue that this is the "season for giving." I give all year to charities, groups and organizations because I want to, not because I'm forced. I give gifts to those I love, like and respect during the year, I don't wait until December 25th. I resent being forced to participate in something I find so repugnant just because "everyone else does it." Thankfully, I was able to convince my family years ago to quit the madness. Of course this is a personal decision and some folks just won't be able to break the habit or feel pressured by other family members to participate, even when they don't want to and really can't afford a spending spree.

Someday you won't be here

Tonight when you go to bed and turn off the light, remember that no one escapes this life alive. We all die. One day your physical body won't be there in your bed, at the kitchen table drinking coffee or in your SUV. What will your life have meant? Will this yearly, obscene spending spree have anything to do with the moment your soul leaves your physical body and you stand before our Lord to be judged? Will He be impressed with your $500 gift to a girlfriend or a $75.00 violent video game given to your child to celebrate His birth? Would He be more impressed if you lived your life in a state of Grace and taught your children to live a godly life, obeying His Commandments?

I am cognizant that retailers depend on the "holiday season" to bail them out of the red, but it really isn't my obligation or responsibility to go spend money to buy birthday presents for my family when it isn't even their birthday. That's not what the birth of Jesus Christ means to me. While I can't speak for others, I do hope that my fellow Americans who are Christians will think about what they see around them over the next few weeks and ask themselves if this is really what it's all about? Just for the moment the wrapping paper gets ripped off a gift and the children reaching out, grabbing for more?

Our life here on earth is but a moment in time. Eternity is forever. Perhaps it is better to fill your soul with love for God than your living room with "Christmas" presents. Just a thought.

© 2004 Devvy Kidd - All Rights Reserved

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Devvy Kidd authored the booklets, Why A Bankrupt America and Blind Loyalty, which sold close to 2,000,000 copies. Has been a guest more than 1600 times on radio shows, ran for Congress twice and is a highly sought after public speaker. Devvy is a contributing writer for www.NewsWithViews.com Devvy's web site is: www.devvy.com; is sponsored by El Dorado Gold; e-mail is: devvyk@earthlink.net

[Flint]

No, Christmas isn't Christian. In an attempt to co-opt some heathens, the Christian Church tried to steal the occasion by pasting the otherwise unknown birthday of Christ onto it. But for most Americans (I can't speak for other countries), this rather feeble effort didn't "take" despite the overwhelming majority of Americans being Christians and considering their religion important in the lives. I've even known Jews willing to decorate trees and exchange gifts, regarding it as a purely cultural occasion much like July 4th.

Incidentally, Easter suffers the same problems, for the same reasons. The whole business with bunnies and eggs no more symbolizes Christianity than trees and reindeer. I've read of the same general pattern occuring worldwide, where the Church has attempted to paste Christian overtones onto non-Christian cultural events and celebrations. To the best of my knowledge, there is no Christian holiday whose roots lie entirely and unambiguously within the Christian history. But I defer to the experts on this.

[Anita]

Christians, pagans, and atheists are all welcome to reply to this thread.

What about folks who believe in the countless OTHER religions of the world? Are THEY excluded? :)

My personal opinion [as a nonbeliever] is that it's a HIGHLY overrated holiday. That said, I DID partake in the experience when my kids were young, because in the US, it's a huge deal to MANY, and I didn't want my kids to grow up not understanding that this was a huge deal to many. I no longer celebrate Christmas unless the three now grown kids spend their time off at my home and DESIRE the experience, but they still send gifts to each other and enjoy the festive atmosphere at homes of people who enjoy the Christmas of their childhood.

I think it's easy to say that celebrating Christmas is wrong because it's not in the right month, etc., and easy to say that Halloween ALSO has pagan origins, but when all your peers are out there getting candy, or all your peers are getting Christmas presents, it takes a toll on kids, I think to be excluded. I didn't see them THIS year, but LAST year at Halloween, I was surprised to see my Muslim neighbor accompanying her children trick-or-treating...during RAMIDAN! *I* was surprised, but SHE said, "How can I NOT allow them to participate and still encourage them to blend in with society?"

Tough stuff for folks who don't believe in the same things.

[fruit loop]

Celebrating Christ's birth in December was an attempt to wipe out the pagan festival of Yule.

Easter was the celebration of Beltane, if I'm not mistaken.

I don't think Jesus minds Christmas trees, family feasts, exchanging presents, or giving to charities so little kids can enjoy the season too. I like to think he'd find Christmas trees pretty too.

I resent the implication by some Christians that the very fact that I have a tree in my house and a wreath on my door means I'm losing sight of the real reason for the season. Devout Christians NEVER forget the real reason for the celebration......this is the time when we commemorate our Saviour's birth.

I am not so easily distracted that I will forget that and I don't think most other folks are, either. Looking at a few ribbons and bows isn't going to make me forget that easily.

So why the reason for the decorations and other trappings? Well, WHY NOT?

[Darkimbolc]

Modern Christmas in America is about as Christian as I am.

Yes, it is based on Pagan celebration (*Yule*tide, anyone?). However, since then it has become more commercial than anything else.

But, FWIW to the Christians out there: Merry Christmas.

[LizardQueen]

I remember reading somewhere that they think Jesus's real birthday was in the summer (something about the star that year that the wise men saw being visible in that area only in August or something like that). Then the church moved it to get the pagans on board.

It doesn't bother me any, as I'm not Christian ("agnostic Buddho-Druid" is about as good a description of myself as I can provide :lol: ) so I celebrate it from a Yule-like perspective anyway.

But yes, it's a weird treatment of someone's birthday. Americans tend to do that anyway - even Washington's birthday used to be the marker for some really good sheet and towel sales in the department stores.

The commercialism of it DOES bother me, and I don't think you have to be particularly religious for it to. Exchanging gifts is always fun (every culture has done it - Northwest coast indians had their big potlatches, etc) but the sheer greed coating the season, and especially promoted by the advertisers always kinds of bums me out.

It may make sense for Christians to move Jesus's birthday back out of Christmas and pick another day for it closer to the time of year it happened. Leave Yule as a feast day with lots of food, gifts, trees, elves, etc like it originally was and start another holiday in August for the birthday.
A lot of people get up in arms about "creating" holidays ( you should hear my sister go off on Kwanzaa :lol: ) but I've never had a problem with that.

LQ/Tweak

[SmartAZ]

Well, here we go again: What does "christian" mean?

We can't agree on what "money" means, we can't agree on what "direct tax" means, and now we are discussing christianity, which even most christians don't understand. What is the point?

[Darkimbolc]

Easter was the celebration of Beltane, if I'm not mistaken.

Actually, you are mistaken. Beltane is May 1st (Fertility Festival! Wahoo!). Easter in very near Eostar (celebration of the return of the Goddess Ostare from the underworld) on the Vernal Equinox.

[Pepper]

The commercialism for this holiday turns me off in a big way. It wouldn't bother me if the holiday was ban forever. I celebrete it only because I have young grandchildren and it brings them joy. I DO NOT go in debt doing so however.

There is very little 'Christ' in Christmas. I think the Xmas is a better term for it.

Pepper

[Clawdia]

I think the early Christians had to more or less usurp the Pagan holidays - it was the only way to convert the Pagans (so they thought), and since everyone was used to having a festival that time of year, Christmas slid right into the space previously occupied by Yule (previously for some, ongoing for others).

[Yammy]

I see what I was going to say has already been posted. pagan holidays to help convert, you betcha!

[member31]

I've read of the same general pattern occuring worldwide, where the Church has attempted to paste Christian overtones onto non-Christian cultural events and celebrations.

heck it's even more interesting when they build their christian churches RIGHT ON TOP of the pagan site. that has happened wherever christians invaded. the muslims have done the same and will when they get here, so get ready.

is christmas christian? santa claus said it is, i believe him, that settles it.

[H2O]

I believe it is an abomination against God ! Here is why.

Jeremiah 10:2--42. Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

This is the way I see it. You all have your own views and may of course
risk or dare to anger our Father God as you will.
But as for me I do fear the Lord and thats that.

[goatlady]

It's even more interesting is that when all those grand cathedrals were being built in old Europe by newly converted Pagans the stone masons and others incorporated Pagan symbols into the cathedrals- many of the interior columns are carved to resemble oak trees with the Green Man or the Horned Man peeking out from the branches, and other small and large beings being there also. I've been to a few and seen then myself with binoculars as they are VERY high near the tops of the columns.

[Ought Six]

Actually, in 274 A.D. the Roman Emperor Pope Julius I specified December 25th as the official holiday to celebrate the birth of Christ to coopt the old Roman holiday, Saturnalia (the day of the birth of the Invincible Sun, "Dies Natalis Invicti Solis"). This holiday was taken from the Zorastrian religion, as the Roman version, the Cult of Mithras, was one of the most popular religions in the Empire. It is incorrect to call Saturnalia a pagan holiday, as Zorastrians are monotheistic, and a pagan is a believer in many gods by definition.

Yule is a pagan Celtic winter solstice festival celibrated beginning on December 20th and ending December 31st. The term was coopted by Xns in the 12th century. All of the common Xmas customs, including gift-giving, the yule log, Xmas tree, and kissing under the mistletoe are stolen from Celtic pagan tradition. Note that the 12 days of the pagan Yule celebration match up perfectly with 'the 12 days of Xmas'. Even the Xmas ham is related to the Celtic ritual of sacrificing a wild boar to the god Frey (to insure a bountiful Spring), and serving the flesh of the beast at the feast. The boar's head was placed upon the altar with a piece of fruit in its mouth, a ritual you will still see at some formal Xmas dinner events to this day (as a centerpiece on the dinner table, instead of on an altar). When boars became hard to find, domestic pigs were substituted, and then eventually the Xmas ham.

The Xmas tree was originally an oak or ash. The Celts believed trees were holy spirits, and the decoration of the tree (which appeared dead in the winter) was to appease the tree spirits and insure that they returned and brought the trees back to life in the Spring. Xn friars & missionaries could not stamp out the custom, but did manage to change it to an evergreen tree, which does not 'die' during the winter, representing everlasting life in Christ.

=========================================================

Here is a somewhat virulent piece that I found interesting enough to save:

=========================================================

The True Meaning Of Christ-Mass

They tell us that it is the season to be jolly. It is a time of ornaments, red and green decorations, silver bells, holly, mistletoe and colored lights. It is also a time of department store Santas calling out their universal mantra, "Ho ho ho, Merry Christmas." Nearly all of the realm of so-called "Christianity" join in and repeat this same greeting, "Merry Christmas!"

Although we hear these words constantly as they resonate millions of times throughout the land, almost nobody understands what they are really saying. It is the purpose of this tract to take the words, "Merry Christmas" and examine the true meaning and essence of those words.

A true Christian would want to examine everything they say, because Jesus said in Matthew 12:36-37, "But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." We will now set aside all of the customs, glitter and traditions of Christmas, which were taken from pagan witchcraft and popularized by the Roman Catholic Church, and we will focus on the true meaning of the words, "Merry Christmas!"

The word "Merry" is simple to define. It unquestionably means to be happy, joyful and light-hearted. The word "merry" fits into the ambience of laughter and frivolity. This word "merry" by itself is innocent and innocuous enough, but as we will now see, it becomes heinously blasphemous when used with the word "Christmas."

Here let it be noted that most people think that the word, "Christmas" means "the birth of Christ." By definition, it means "death of Christ", and I will prove it by using the World Book Encyclopedia, the Catholic Encyclopedia, and a book entitled, The Mass In Slow Motion.

If you are an honest, sincere and discerning Christian, please read on; if not, you might as well stop right here. The World Book Encyclopedia defines "Christmas" as follows: "The word Christmas comes from "Cristes Maesse", an early English phrase that means "Mass of Christ." (1) It is interesting to note that the word "Mass", as used by the Roman Catholics, has traditionally been rejected by the so-called Protestants, such as Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals and so on. The word "Mass" is strictly a Catholic word and thus, so is "Christ-Mass."

It would stand to reason, that since all of these denominations love and embrace "Christ-Mass", that December 25th is the great homecoming day, when all of the Protestants become Catholic for a day. It would seem that all of the so-called "wayward daughters" of the Romish church return to their mother, the scarlet harlot. Thus, all of the so-called Protestant churches could sing to the Pope that popular song "I'll be home for Christmas."

As previously stated, the word "Mass" in religious usage means a "death sacrifice." The impact of this fact is horrifying and shocking; for when the millions of people are saying, "Merry Christmas", they are literally saying "Merry death of Christ!" Furthermore, when the fat man in the red suit laughs boisterously and says, "Ho ho ho, Merry Christmas", he is mocking and laughing at the suffering and bleeding Saviour, who died for our sins. He does this while parents place their little children into his waiting arms to hear his false promises of gifts that he says he will give them. Consider what you are saying when you say "Merry Christmas."

What is so amusing about our Saviour's painful death? What is so funny? Why is Santa laughing? Why are you going along with it? Your words do count and Satan knows it. Yes, the word "Mass" does mean "death sacrifice", and to cement that fact, we will consider the definition of the inventors of the religious application of the word "Mass." I am looking at page 537 of the Catholic Encyclopedia, which says, "In the Christian law, the supreme sacrifice is that of the Mass." It goes on to say, "The supreme act of worship consists essentially in an offering of a worthy victim to God, the offering made by a proper person, as a priest, the destruction of the victim." (2) Please note carefully the word, "victim" of the Mass. The Latin word for victim is "Hostia" from which the word "host" is derived. The Mass, by definition of those who coined the word, is a sacrifice involving a victim. There is no other meaning for the word "Mass" or "Christ-Mass." On page 110 of a book entitled "The Mass In Slow Motion", we find the following words: "It is only with the consecration that the sacrifice of the Mass is achieved. I have represented the Mass to you, more than once, as a kind of ritual dance." (3)

In essence, the Mass is the ceremonial slaying of Jesus Christ over and over again, followed by the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood. The Mass is the death sacrifice, and the "Host" is the victim. This is official Roman Catholic doctrine, and "Christmas" is a word that they invented. Again, I ask, what is so merry about the pain, bleeding, suffering and death of Jesus Christ? Satan has done quite a job of getting millions of so-called "Christians" to blaspheme. What a deceiver he is. Now you know the true meaning of the word "Christmas" or Mass of Christ. There is much more to know about this pagan holiday, and we will be glad to provide you with plenty of evidence that Jesus was not born on December 25th, and that Christmas is not only a lie, but is actually a witches' sabbath called "Yule" in clever disguise. Please contact us at the address below, and for the sake of your soul, flee from idolatry!

David J. Meyer

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acknowledgements:
01. World Book Encyclopedia, vol.3, p. 408, 1986 ed., World Book Inc.,
Chicago, IL

02. The Catholic Encyclopedia, R.C. Broderick, 1975 ed., Nihil Obstat,
Richard J. Sklba, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, Archbishop William E.
Cousins, Milwaukee, WI.

03. The Mass In Slow Motion, Ronald Knox, 1948, Sheed & Ward, Inc., New
York, NY. Nihil Obstat, E.C. Messenger, Censor Deputatus. Imprimatur,
E. Morrogh Bernard, Vic. Gen.


Last Trumpet Ministries International
PO Box 806
Beaver Dam, WI 53916

[Ginger Quill]

I think the history of Christmas is interesting, and I've gotten to where I don't care about it's pagan origins as much as I do about the presents! Just kidding.

It's probably the only time of the year, that *some* people think of giving and doing for someone other than themselves - whatever their beliefs.

If it brings people together to share in the spirit of the season by giving of themselves, or bring them closer to a spiritual relationship with themselves, their loved ones or their Creator, than I should I care whether or not it's origins are "pagan"?

[fruit loop]

I was kind of confused as to when Beltane was. Didn't know if it was "May Day" or an equinox.

I like the Beltane festival in Marian Zimmer Bradley's "Mists of Avalon" (still my all time favorite book). I'd love to make love to a handsome warrior in a field...

Merry Yule to you!

[Darkimbolc]

06:
and kissing under the mistletoe are stolen from Celtic pagan tradition.

Norse, not Celtic.

"...origin of the tradition comes from the Norse mythology where mistletoe was the sacred plant of Frigga, the goddess of love.

Frigga's son, Balder, the god of sun, dreamed of his own death one night, which disturbed Frigga. She consulted every plant and animal on earth, who promised that they would not harm Balder.

Loki, the god of evil, saw a loophole in Frigga's plan in that she forgot to consult the mistletoe for a promise. Loki then constructed an arrow of the mistletoe wood and gave the arrow to Hoder, the blind god of winter. Hoder shot the arrow and struck Balder dead.

Frigga resurrected her son three days later and legend said that her tears became the white berries of the plant and from then on she kissed everyone who passed beneath it. The legend ends with the tradition that anyone who passes under a mistletoe receives a kiss."

(http://www.pentaclemagazine.org/php/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1195&newlang=&topic=5&catid=0)

[SmartAZ]

I think the early Christians had to more or less usurp the Pagan holidays
Christians never felt any need to usurp anything. It has always been the pagans infiltrating christian practices. Babylon Mystery Religion (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/091693800X/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/104-5923310-8731915) traces the early history of some of it.

[member31]

that story is BS, darkimbolc. in fact, it is balderdash! ;)

pagan is interesting.

Pagan was the name given to idolaters in the early Christian church, because the villagers, being most remote from the centers of instruction, remained for a long time unconverted.

these were the early red state people.

[member31]

smartaz, do you find this review helpful?

14 of 20 people found the following review helpful:

Should be no stars. . ., November 26, 2001
Reviewer: Thomas Becket (11th century Canterbury, England) - See all my reviews

"Babylon Mystery Religion" is an Americanized, 20th century work based largely on the much more difficult "The Two Babylons" by Rev. Alexander Hislop. The basic thrust of the book is that the doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church are based on the pagan religion practiced by Nimrod and ancient Babylon.

A number of difficulties exist: Virtually nothing is said in Scripture concerning Nimrod. His name appears in a total of four verses, three of which are simple geneaology lists. The fourth verse is part of a prophecy, linking Nimrod with an early monarch of Assyria. Nothing is said about his religious practices; his family life; etc.

Furthermore, virtually nothing is said in Scripture about the relgious practices in Assyria in general (even assuming that one can link Nimrod with Assyria).

From an historical perspective, it is impossible to make the claims that Rev. Woodrow makes in this book (like Rev. Hislop before him). The historical records simply do not exist. While the character of Nimrod has been linked to various early monarchs of Assyria (and legendary characters) there is no historical information about his life, his beliefs, etc. Nimrod falls into the category of "pre-history".

Based on the lack of biblical information and based on the lack of historical information, the conclusions reached in this book are totally unfounded and unreasonable.

Rev. Woodrow himself eventually came to realize this, and at his own expense, withdrew this book from publication.

More readers need to come to the same conclusions.

[SmartAZ]

Well, it appears that I was misled. I never read that book, and never heard of that author. The link came from a list of references to E. W. Bullinger who wrote a book of the same name, and that is the book I read.

I grant that documentation for that period is scarce to nil. But the evidence for christians usurping pagan holidays is zero.

[fruit loop]

Paganism PREDATES Christianity. The Christians DID swipe from the pagans, not the other way around.

Satanists steal from Christians. Satanism has NOTHING to do with paganism. Pagans don't believe in Satan

[Ought Six]

S-AZ:"I grant that documentation for that period is scarce to nil. But the evidence for christians usurping pagan holidays is zero."While Saturnalia is not pagan for reasons I described, it is undeniable historical fact that Emperor Pope Julius I set Xmas Day to be the 25th to coopt the Saturnalia holiday from the Cult of Mithras. The Cult of Mithras was by far the most popular religion among the Roman Legions, and Emperor knew that control of the Legions was the key to power in Rome. This was a period where the Roman Catholic Church was trying to stamp out non-Xn religions and establish their supreme authority. To think that Julius I happened to choose Saturnalia as the Xmas holiday, thus coopting that holiday, by sheer coincidence is naive at best. You are in denial.

Early Xns did not observe a Christmas holiday. Easter was the most important holiday for early Xns. The first recorded church decree declaring an Xmas celebration was by the Bishop of Rome in 137 A.D., calling for a 'solemn feast' to honor the birth of Christ, but it was not held during the winter. There was no winter Xmas holiday until it was decreed by Julius I.

A reading of scripture shows clearly that Jesus was not born in the winter. The Gospel speaks of sheperds in the fields with lambs. Lambs are born in spring, and sheep are kept corralled during the winter, as there is no forage for them in the fields. So it is obvious that the December 25th date was *not* taken from scripture or early Xn tradition. Also, there is nothing in the Bible declaring that Xns should observe Jesus's birthday as a holy day, so the Xmas holiday is purely an invention of man.

The Xmas holiday is the result of an early power play by the Roman Catholic Church to solidify its power and authority. Anyone who thinks that it marks the actual day of Jesus's birth, or that it came from early Xn tradition is seriously deluded.

[Ought Six]

DI:

The mistletoe custom was not solely from the Norse religion.According to Francis X. Weiser, in his Handbook of Christian Feasts and Customs:

The Mistletoe was a sacred plant in the pagan religion of the Druids in Britain. It was believed to have all sorts of miraculous qualities: the power of healing diseases, making poisons harmless, giving fertility to humans and animals, protecting from witchcraft, banning evil spirits, bringing good luck and great blessings. In fact, it was considered so sacred that even enemies who happened to meet beneath a Mistletoe in the forest would lay down their arms, exchange a friendly greeting, and keep a truce until the following day. From this old custom grew the practice of suspending Mistletoe over a doorway or in a room as a token of good will and peace to all comers. [p. 104]So it was the Norse custom to kiss under the mistletoe in the forest, and the Celts who brought it into the home.

[SmartAZ]

O6, you have not described a christian power play, you have described a political power play. Bear in mind that christians have always emphasized teaching people to read; that naturally leads to christians dominating the civil service, and an emperor would eventually convert to that religion just because he found himself in charge of a mostly christian staff. It would then be politically wise of him to bolster the christian practices, not because he believes them, but to maintain control.

E. W. Bullinger claims that christians have always celebrated two dates, which we now call christmas and michaelmas. I haven't been able to verify his figures (that is, I haven't tried very hard), but he says they are 270 days apart, which is the human gestation period. If that is true, michaelmas (Sept 25 or thereabouts) would be the date of birth and dec 25 would be the date of conception. That certainly fits the biblical story better, but documentation is lacking.

I personally consider dates to be unimportant. Everybody gets born, and everybody dies. If the date were important, the bible would have included enough information to identify it. What's important is Romans 10:9&10 - "9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." If you did that you're in, dates or no dates. And if you didn't do that you're out, dates or no dates.

[SmartAZ]

Easter is an example of how people so easily get confused about dates. Jesus was crucified a little before sundown on the day before a sabbath, and the empty tomb was discovered on sunday morning. The churches jump to the conclusion that he was crucified on friday and rose sunday morning, contradicting the prophecy of 3 days and 3 nights in the grave. That was a requirement of Roman law; if he had been less than 72 hours in the grave he would not have been legally dead. Just reading and counting straightens this out. He was crucified just before sundown, so he rose just before sundown 72 hours later. So he rose saturday evening. Counting back three days and three nights, he was crucified on wednesday, and the sabbath was on a thursday. "Sabbath" means either the regular weekly sabbath on saturday or any of the feasts, which might fall on any day of the week.

[Darkimbolc]

Christians have always emphasized teaching people to read

Quite the contrary. Literacy was seen as a threat to the early Catholic Church. Remember they almost torched Gutenberg for translating the Bible?

It was the Romans that (initially) pushed for literacy; building libraries in territories they conquered.

[Flint]

Holidays, get-togethers of family and friends are all great, but lets not fool ourselves that it has anything to do with the life of Jesus Christ and His purpose in coming for the salvation of man.
In fact, let's not fool ourselves that there every was a physical person on whom our Jesus legends are modeled. Instead, enjoy your family and your friends and any time you get to spend enjoying the season.

[SmartAZ]

Uh, Flint, you are contradicting your remarks about "evidence" in another thread. There is plenty of evidence about Jesus. Where is your evidence to the contrary? You might refuse to believe his message, but that doesn't mean the story was faked.

[Flint]

SmartAZ:

What should we make of conflicting evidence? Consider this site (http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm) or perhaps this one (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm) instead. I find that this essay (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html) lays the issues out pretty clearly also.

Very briefly, while there may have been an individual on whom the Jesus of the Gospel was modeled, the mythical Jesus surely exaggerates this person beyond all recognition, pasting onto him elements from a grab-bag of existing myths and stories. There is no shortage of basic common-sense reasons to be skeptical of his existence at all.

In my opinion, short of a time machine, we'll never really know. Current archaeological findings indicate that the Nazareth of 2000 years ago was a settlement of perhaps 25 people. The earliest writings about Jesus were about 70 years later, and written about 1500 miles away. Even with today's archiving capabilities, geographical mobility, and value placed on accuracy rather than pure "whatever works" fabrication as was the recording style of the day, we'd have a hard time coming very close to what actually happened in those circumstances.

Then again, I'm considering the situation from the perspective of an engineer and not of a mystic. An engineer says "Everything considered, what is the most probable explanation of what we know?" The mystic says "Here is the truth I wish to believe. How can I bring it to life?"

[Anita]

4 or 5 years ago, I don't think you would have even CONSIDERED looking into the history of ANY belief system. Few believers take the time to explore anything earlier than the sacred scripts for their chosen belief system, not even taking the time to investigate the belief systems or sacred scripts of others to see the similarities [which trace back to the SAME histories].

[Miss Anne Thrope]

Christmas means for each of us what we want it to mean. What matters, I believe, is intent.

[Ought Six]

S-AZ:"O6, you have not described a christian power play, you have described a political power play. Bear in mind that christians have always emphasized teaching people to read; that naturally leads to christians dominating the civil service, and an emperor would eventually convert to that religion just because he found himself in charge of a mostly christian staff. It would then be politically wise of him to bolster the christian practices, not because he believes them, but to maintain control."First, I understand the difference between faith and religion.

Second, at the time of Julius I, Xn religion and state politics were melded into one inseperable entitiy. The Pope of the Holy Roman Catholic Church was also the Emporer of the Roman Empire.

Third, I have long noticed that with the history of the Xn church, Xns love to claim any good act done by the church, clergy or Xns of the time as their own, as an example of how wonderful Xnity is; and at the same time, denying any bad acts done by precisely the same group of people, declaring they are "not true Xns". When it comes to the history of Xnity, many Xns do not just *want* to have it both ways; they demand it. At the same time, they will take any bad act done by Muslims and use it to denigrate the Muslim religion in general. Sorry, but that multiple standard does not fly.

================================================================

MAT:"Christmas means for each of us what we want it to mean. What matters, I believe, is intent."Quite right. However, history is still fascinating.

[SmartAZ]

Xns love to claim any good act done by the church, clergy or Xns of the time as their own, as an example of how wonderful Xnity is; and at the same time, denying any bad acts done by precisely the same group of people, declaring they are "not true Xns".
So what's new? Non-Xns do the same thing in reverse except they ignore any good deeds and make up lies to blame on Xns. (I'm using your term since "Xns" since you are sure to understand it and seem to be very fond of it.) The most common lie is "all the people killed in the name of the church", which might be 100,000 or so, and ignoring the millions killed just by Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, and Mao. They never give Xns credit for the hundreds of hospitals they founded or the millions of people they taught to read. Russia has an alphabet only because St. Cyril created it so he could print a bible in Russian. The world has science only because the Catholic church stored books and supported researchers for centuries. The world has "western" music only because Christians developed it to glorify their God.

What do the other churches offer? Scientists have been distracted for 60 years by goofy ideas arising from other religions. "A phenomenon doesn't exist until some investigator observes it." (Schroedinger's Cat) That is a buddhist concept, and scientists have had quite a time realizing that it is silly. The midset of most religions is to catalog known factoids without challenging their veracity, or ignoring them because they are not already part of the canon. Only Christians feel the freedom to investigate anything and challenge everything, even the existence of their own God.

Atheists are not free at all. They feel a need to challenge everything but they don't investigate anything. They decide what they want to believe and then find or invent a system that includes it. Atheism offers nothing. "My head remains bloodied but unbowed. I am the captain of my fate, I am the master of my soul." Who wants a bloody head and a captain who doesn't know what he's doing?

[Ought Six]

S-AZ:"Only Christians feel the freedom to investigate anything and challenge everything, even the existence of their own God."

"Atheists are not free at all. They feel a need to challenge everything but they don't investigate anything."This is pure.... :bs:

Atheism (excluding agnosticism) is a belief system just as much as faith in God is. One is no more or less mentally straightjacketing than the other. Whether one questions the world around them or not is a product of the individual's personality, not their belief system.

[pop pop]

I'm an engineer like Flint ... well, maybe not like Flint but I am an engineer. I like numbers. Let's see, according to one source: something like 6.2 billion humans on this insignificant cosmic accident of a rock ... consisting of about 2 billion Christians, 1.2 billion Muslims, maybe 1.9 billion Hindu, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jews, and other believers, and 910 thousand atheists and other nonbelievers.

So ... 85.4% of the planet just doesn't get it? :bs:

[Ought Six]

pp:

Your post is a little confusing, but I think you are trying to say (please correct me if I am mistaken) that 85.4% of the planet is believers, therefore they must be right, and nonbelievers must be wrong. That is what is called an argumentum ad numerum fallacy. Just because the majority believes something in no way, shape or form proves it is true. This is one of the commonly used logical fallacies that are really not valid arguments for anything.

And if you believe numbers equals truth, then you must then believe that guns should be banned; that Xnity is not the sole path to God; and that America is imperialist. After all, the majority of the world believes all these things, and you are arguing from the infallability and wisdom of the majority.

[et95648]

Hi All,
I agree that Christmas is not based on the Bible and was of pagan origins. I think that most Chistians do not care. They see it as a fun holiday and continue to try and drag Christ into it. A lot of Christians only want to do for the Lord what they want to do for him. I wonder if they care what he wants. He says in the Bible Ezekiel 20: 39 "but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols." Ezekiel 39:7 "So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel."

[Chills]

:naughty:

Its a holiday regardless of origin.

I bid you all enjoy it and spend some quality time with your god/s, your family, your friends and give them the best of yourself...

I promise..it wont kill yah.

:yes:






:sigh:

[OnChaos]

No, Christmas isn't Christian. In an attempt to co-opt some heathens, the Christian Church tried to steal the occasion by pasting the otherwise unknown birthday of Christ onto it. But for most Americans (I can't speak for other countries), this rather feeble effort didn't "take" despite the overwhelming majority of Americans being Christians and considering their religion important in the lives. I've even known Jews willing to decorate trees and exchange gifts, regarding it as a purely cultural occasion much like July 4th.

Incidentally, Easter suffers the same problems, for the same reasons. The whole business with bunnies and eggs no more symbolizes Christianity than trees and reindeer. I've read of the same general pattern occuring worldwide, where the Church has attempted to paste Christian overtones onto non-Christian cultural events and celebrations. To the best of my knowledge, there is no Christian holiday whose roots lie entirely and unambiguously within the Christian history. But I defer to the experts on this.

While there is certainly enough commercial enterprise to support your above models and I'm sure, as you've stated above, that you have first hand knowledge of people who act in the manner you describe. I know numerous people that take both holidays very seriously as part of their Christian lives, Christ in fact dominates their behavior.

I'm not really sure how we co-op'ed Sunday either for that matter. We feeble Christians need a regularly occuring event to reinforce our faith. I'm even willing to agree that Christmas was a co-oping of winter fests of yore. Easter, I'm not so sure they had the Easter Bunny to jump a religious significance too, wwwwwwwwwwway back. Maybe a Spring festival, May fest comes to mind. Sunrise service? Maybe people were looking to see if the Sun was really there after a cold, dark, gloomy winter.

Both Easter and Christmas have a very successful secular following. What I have trouble with is that your thesis seems to infer that few if any Christians take these two holidays in context to their relationship to Christ. You could say that the huge turnout for the Passion of Christ would indicate that maybe more people take Christ seriously than your above comments would indicate. Anyone claiming to be a Christian is obviously a hypocrite, since they fall so short of what Chirst stood for, what I see you saying is that no Christian takes Christmas for what it means symbolically from a spiritual point of view, the Birth of Our Savior. How could they, it's co-op'ed from the pagans?

No doubt the crowd you hang out with, which may just be yourself, behaves this way. You should get out more. Go to Church, follow a few of the Sunday go to worship types around. Yep, they maybe some just show up on Sunday Christians, or you might be surprised to find out there are some Christians pretty devoted to the Path Christ illuminates for us to follow. I personally know some perfect atheist, but have yet to find one perfect Christian but one, Christ. Pretty easy for atheist, not much of a standard around for them to be measured by.

I think both Christmas and Easter are important spiritually for many people, myself included. I don't think my\their particiapation in gift giving, tree decorating, or egg hiding indicates that they can't possibly have a robust, meaningful, sincere relationship with Christ. I get the feeling that is what your comments infer.

There are quite a few people, both Christian and otherwise that would say I'm a pretty poor Christian. In the end, Christ and I will settle up, so don't worry yourself about it. All I can say is that I'm consciencously trying to walk the walk, and I'm busy enough with that to be too horribly bothered if you aren't, that's your choice.

So in summary, Christmas isn't Christian for some, and it's very Christian to others. I think this broad generalization is more fitting and leaves the reader with a little better understanding of what's going on around town.