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Aleph Null
01-05-2005, 08:03 PM
{This is worth a read. And I think the last paragraph will some day soon be in my signature block. --a0}

Tremors of Doubt
What kind of God would allow a deadly tsunami?

BY DAVID B. HART
Friday, December 31, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST

On Nov. 1, 1755, a great earthquake struck offshore of Lisbon. In that city alone, some 60,000 perished, first from the tremors, then from the massive tsunami that arrived half an hour later. Fires consumed much of what remained of the city. The tidal waves spread death along the coasts of Iberia and North Africa.

Voltaire's "Poëme sur le désastre de Lisbonne" of the following year was an exquisitely savage--though sober--assault upon the theodicies prevalent in his time. For those who would argue that "all is good" and "all is necessary," that the universe is an elaborately calibrated harmony of pain and pleasure, or that this is the best of all possible worlds, Voltaire's scorn was boundless: By what calculus of universal good can one reckon the value of "infants crushed upon their mothers' breasts," the dying "sad inhabitants of desolate shores," the whole "fatal chaos of individual miseries"?

Perhaps the most disturbing argument against submission to "the will of God" in human suffering--especially the suffering of children--was placed in the mouth of Ivan Karamazov by Dostoyevsky; but the evils Ivan enumerates are all acts of human cruelty, for which one can at least assign a clear culpability. Natural calamities usually seem a greater challenge to the certitudes of believers in a just and beneficent God than the sorrows induced by human iniquity.

Considered dispassionately, though, man is part of the natural order, and his propensity for malice should be no less a scandal to the conscience of the metaphysical optimist than the most violent convulsions of the physical world. The same ancient question is apposite to the horrors of history and nature alike: Whence comes evil? And as Voltaire so elegantly apostrophizes, it is useless to invoke the balances of the great chain of being, for that chain is held in God's hand and he is not enchained.

As a Christian, I cannot imagine any answer to the question of evil likely to satisfy an unbeliever; I can note, though, that--for all its urgency--Voltaire's version of the question is not in any proper sense "theological." The God of Voltaire's poem is a particular kind of "deist" God, who has shaped and ordered the world just as it now is, in accord with his exact intentions, and who presides over all its eventualities austerely attentive to a precise equilibrium between felicity and morality. Not that reckless Christians have not occasionally spoken in such terms; but this is not the Christian God.

The Christian understanding of evil has always been more radical and fantastic than that of any theodicist; for it denies from the outset that suffering, death and evil have any ultimate meaning at all. Perhaps no doctrine is more insufferably fabulous to non-Christians than the claim that we exist in the long melancholy aftermath of a primordial catastrophe, that this is a broken and wounded world, that cosmic time is the shadow of true time, and that the universe languishes in bondage to "powers" and "principalities"--spiritual and terrestrial--alien to God. In the Gospel of John, especially, the incarnate God enters a world at once his own and yet hostile to him--"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not"--and his appearance within "this cosmos" is both an act of judgment and a rescue of the beauties of creation from the torments of fallen nature.

Whatever one makes of this story, it is no bland cosmic optimism. Yes, at the heart of the gospel is an ineradicable triumphalism, a conviction that the victory over evil and death has been won; but it is also a victory yet to come. As Paul says, all creation groans in anguished anticipation of the day when God's glory will transfigure all things. For now, we live amid a strife of darkness and light.

When confronted by the sheer savage immensity of worldly suffering--when we see the entire littoral rim of the Indian Ocean strewn with tens of thousands of corpses, a third of them children's--no Christian is licensed to utter odious banalities about God's inscrutable counsels or blasphemous suggestions that all this mysteriously serves God's good ends. We are permitted only to hate death and waste and the imbecile forces of chance that shatter living souls, to believe that creation is in agony in its bonds, to see this world as divided between two kingdoms--knowing all the while that it is only charity that can sustain us against "fate," and that must do so until the end of days.

Mr. Hart, an Eastern Orthodox theologian, is the author of "The Beauty of the Infinite" (Eerdmans).

Chills
01-05-2005, 08:06 PM
What kind of God would allow a deadly tsunami?

Perhaps one made in the image of man....

Just a thought...

Aleph Null
01-05-2005, 08:12 PM
Did you read the whole piece, Chills?

Do you think you got what he was getting at?

a0

Chills
01-05-2005, 08:24 PM
Did you read the whole piece, Chills?

Do you think you got what he was getting at?

a0

Aleph...

Yup I read it... it is a beautiful piece btw..

And I tend to agree with his point though I would perhaps word it sans the religious references

I think the point he is making actually leaves him at odds with a large percentage of the religious...in particular the more hysterical fringe fanatics.

Aleph Null
01-05-2005, 08:30 PM
I think the point he is making actually leaves him at odds with a large percentage of the religious...in particular the more hysterical fringe fanatics.

Actually, I think he is in sync with a large percentage of the religious. The hysterical fringe fanatics are really a rather small but loud minority.

I hold out hope.

a0

Chills
01-05-2005, 08:39 PM
Aleph--

I find that most religious people are fine people... with few to no serious problems.
They practice what they preach and are most respectful of everyone else regardless of belief or lack there of.

On the other hand I have found in my personal experience and to some degree on line that the hysterical fringers tend to have personal social and mental problems of some sort... That is not a put down of them.. it is simply an observable fact..

I would include... fringers of almost any idealogical persuasion from religious to the atheist to enviro to political.and so on.. the fringers are wacked...
but they make great sound bytes.
And color the general perception... unfortunately.

Flint
01-05-2005, 09:07 PM
I admit I'm not sure what he's driving at. Is he saying that the two kingdoms are God's and Satan's, or are the two kingdoms the lousy one at present necessary to precede the glorious one yet to come (for some reason not clear), or are the two kingdoms those of earth and heaven? He seems to be saying that we may be horrified by these disasters, but that's OK because the world we live in really doesn't matter, all that matters is the world we inhabit after death. Or did I miss that part too? I can't even tell (after multiple readings) whether he regards the tsunami as evil at all.

After a couple more readings, I despair of ever extracting much of a thesis out of this. It comes to me as pure bafflegab.

Chills
01-05-2005, 09:12 PM
Flint...

I thought he was pretty clear...and articulate...
When confronted by the sheer savage immensity of worldly suffering--when we see the entire littoral rim of the Indian Ocean strewn with tens of thousands of corpses, a third of them children's--no Christian is licensed to utter odious banalities about God's inscrutable counsels or blasphemous suggestions that all this mysteriously serves God's good ends. We are permitted only to hate death and waste and the imbecile forces of chance that shatter living souls, to believe that creation is in agony in its bonds, to see this world as divided between two kingdoms--knowing all the while that it is only charity that can sustain us against "fate," and that must do so until the end of days.

Flint
01-05-2005, 09:50 PM
Chills,

I'm afraid underlining what I couldn't interpret doesn't clarify it very much. So Christians aren't permitted to speculate about God's intentions? If that's what he's saying, I know of no Christians who fail to violate this proscription regularly. Instead, we must simply regret what seems awful without doing so? Uh, how? What does he mean by charity? Is he simply saying we should contribute money to recovery efforts? How is this especially Christian?

Chills
01-05-2005, 10:05 PM
Flint...

I think I said earlier... that I tend to agree with his point ..(at least some of them) but I would have worded it without religious reference.

I read this as being addressed to Christians.

You ask what is charity?

If I recall correctly..... it was actually the word charity that was used in old bible texts before the more recent versions replace it with the word love....

I think where love is fairly ambigous... charity is not...

Mayhaps the reason for the change. I dont know personally.. I am not a biblical scholar.

Hopefully one of the more biblically knowledgable will enlighten us on this.

Basically my read on his piece reduced to its bare minimum is something like this ... get off your high horse and get with the program...those who waste their time judging are counter productive and counter survival they are a drain on the community rather than an asset........no man is an island unto themselves etc etc etc..... it is the bonds of community ...whether simply the extended family or the entire global community... that keeps us going...
Or something in the general area.


BTW-- the underlined sections were what twigged my take etc..

Flint
01-05-2005, 10:25 PM
So you don't really know what he's talking about either. I'm glad it's not just me; perhaps there is a secret dictionary known only to Christians, giving words meanings such that grammatically correct sentences also contain semantic content unavailable to the rest of us?

My take on what he means, altogether, is: Shit happens, God did it but God isn't responsible, we shouldn't wonder about these things, everyone pitch in, feel bad, don't feel bad it's life and life only, the afterlife is all that matters except that the present matters too, so we should groan in agony except that the message is optimistic but I won't tell you what the message is. All together now...

Ginger Quill
01-05-2005, 10:29 PM
Some Christians will justify this in a number of ways:

1. The world became imperfect when Adam & Eve sinned; we live in an imperfect world; shit happens.

2. It is God's will that over a hundred thousand should die; never question the will of God.

3. It was a predominantly Muslim nation, God is separating the wheat from the chaff. We sure hope they "got saved" in the last moments of their lives.

As trite as it sounds, I think that a lot of answers to life's tribulations lie upon our shoulders and how we deal with it here and now. If God knows the beginning and the end, I think we are held accountable to Him for what we do in the middle.

I have tried to understand why bad things happen to good people. When they do, do we stay focused on our purpose in life, or do we become distracted because of guilt, grief, or anger - more importantly, do we take our emotions out on others because of what's happened to us?

The quest for answers only begs for more questions.

dyrt
01-05-2005, 10:36 PM
What kind of God would allow a deadly tsunami?

All kinds. No God stopped it.

Chills
01-05-2005, 10:44 PM
So you don't really know what he's talking about either. I'm glad it's not just me; perhaps there is a secret dictionary known only to Christians, giving words meanings such that grammatically correct sentences also contain semantic content unavailable to the rest of us?

My take on what he means, altogether, is: Shit happens, God did it but God isn't responsible, we shouldn't wonder about these things, everyone pitch in, feel bad, don't feel bad it's life and life only, the afterlife is all that matters except that the present matters too, so we should groan in agony except that the message is optimistic but I won't tell you what the message is. All together now...

I dont know how you arrive at that....but each to their own .

I guess it is kind of like Paul Simon said...." a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest.."