[Kathy.Ca]

We all obviously believe in something that keeps us going. I will sum up my belief. I believe in the bible word for word. I prayfully interpet it my personal way. This in short sums up my belief:

I believe in the ten commandments.
I'm a sinner and break commandments.
I repent and try again that much harder.
I believe in Heaven.
I believe in Hell.
I believe "Jesus Christ" came to earth, ministered and is the son of God!
I believe he died for me so I could go to Heaven, not Hell!

I believe in the rest of the story of the bible as well, that's my belief. It get's me through life. I know he "Jesus" was beaten up in this world, hurt etc... but he kept on truckin no matter what. He's my inspiration of all time.

What's your belief? Curious only?

PS - I don't intend on defending my belief here, just wondered what others really believed about life/death?

[SmartAZ]

I believe this belongs over in the "Definitions" thread. It all depends on what you mean by what you say.

Your list tells me that you, like most christians, don't know much about what you profess to believe. I don't mean that as an attack, just an observation that you don't understand what the bible says about your status as a christian. For instance, if you "believe Jesus Christ came to earth, ministered and is the son of God" then you are totally wrong to say, "I'm a sinner and break commandments." Lemme guess, you're a baptist, right? It's mostly only baptists who speak of "sinners".

[LizardQueen]

I'll bite (as long as others don't bite back :lol: ). And NONE of this is a slam on anyone elses beliefs. I fully support the right of anyone to believe as they wish no matter what I think of it, and in turn expect they will respect my right to do the same, even if they don't agree with it or think it's silly.

FYI, I'm not Christian, I was raised Lutheran but have veered away from it.
What I believe is based on my own experiences and what makes sense to me.

1) I believe that all religions have some element of truth to them but its like that old story of the 4 blind men touching the elephant and not knowing it - one has hold of the trunk and insists that it's a hose, and another has hold of the tail and insists its a brush, etc. Meanwhile it's all part of a much larger elephant.

I don't believe we can ever fully "know the elephant" until after we leave this world.

2) I believe in reincarnation, for a lot of reasons but mostly because of odd experiences I and friends have had, and also that it never made sense to me for someone to be judged for all eternity after being born someplace where they never heard of Jesus, or after being born into such an abusive situation that they ended up a mean criminal.

I believe you choose the circumstances of your rebirth, with God's help, so that you can learn things you need to learn.

3) I don't believe in the Christian concept of "salvation" - the mechanism of of it never made sense to me despite years of churchgoing and arguing with the pastor ;) . Say I had 2 kids and the older one was very good and the younger was very bad. So I kill the older one and tell the younger one "ok, now the bad stuff you did is all washed away, just don't do it again".

There's no guarantee the younger one will learn anything from it, and meanwhile the older one gets screwed when he didn't do anything wrong. Even if he volunteered to get killed it never seemed to me to be a particularly effective concept except for the guilt the younger may feel.
I believe that if you "do the crime you have to do the time" :lol: and that's where multiple lives come in.

4) I believe that we are primarily spirit beings and that this world is a training ground. We can learn things quickly here because it's so hard and painful sometimes.
And I believe that we have to die in part because if we didn't we'd never get anything done :lol: . Can you imagine a planet full of immortals? Why get off the couch if you have an eternity to take care of business? :lol:

5) I don't believe in an activist deity, one who grants wishes etc. But I do believe that prayer works because of the meditative and focused intent of it.

6) I have my doubts about the veracity of some of the Bible. I tend to be very distrusting of anything written/altered by men, particularly over many years and by people with vested interests in the outcome.

As weird as my beliefs may be to others, I find myself equally as comforted by them as KC is by hers. They provide me a framework with which to make sense of this often senseless world.

LQ/Tweak

[Roger Thornhill]

LQ, your beliefs hardly seem "weird" to me, as they're exactly the same as mine. I also am convinced that we are reincarnated, which gives my view of Jesus and his life an interesting twist.

I believe that on a complex superconcious level, we choose to be born into a physical shell in order to learn specific lessons. We progress through numerous life experiences, until we finally reach a state of perfect enlightenment, and are able to "step off the karmic wheel" and become reunited with the Universal One from whence we came.

I believe that Jesus of Nazareth was already a Perfect Being, and returned to the constraints of a physical existence in order to show others the way. To me, his magnificent sacrifice was not at the end of his life, but at the very beginning. His choice to be born once again into a world of doubt and pain, when he had already reached perfection, is the penultimate act of love.

I don't believe in a Messiah; each individual must climb to the mountain top on their own. But I do think that Jesus, and others, have come as guides to help us and show us the way.

[Anita]

Life: an intriguing experience.

Death: end of an intriguing experience.

For ME, anything beyond this consists of "the carrot and the stick". I don't need the thought of a future reward to encourage me to try and be the best person I CAN be, and I don't need the thought of a future punishment to encourage me to be the best person I CAN be.

[Plaid-Man Individual]

I've often wondered, why do most religionists and reincarnationists believe humans are the only living organisms that qualify for the attribute of life after death?

[Jimmy Splinters]

Roger and Tweak, that's me as well!

Dan V.

[LizardQueen]

Not me, Plaid Man. I believe every living thing has a spirit that lives on after the flesh is dead. As a dog owner (or dog ownee, it's debateable :lol: ) I'm pretty well convinced that my dog has as much of a soul as I do.

I don't believe that we reincarnate into or out of animals, though - human energy is human energy, dog is dog, etc. I don't really have any theories on if they go around in circles or for how long.

And IMHO dogs are pretty much perfect beings to start with (unless the neighbors goats are loose and out on my lawn, then she's a bit less than perfect :lol: ) .

LQ/Tweak

[H2O]

Kathy.Ca
I believe in the ten commandments.
I'm a sinner and break commandments.
I repent and try again that much harder.
I believe in Heaven.
I believe in Hell.
I believe "Jesus Christ" came to earth, ministered and is the son of God!
I believe he died for me so I could go to Heaven, not Hell!

I will add this.
Revelations 19:13
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

I am thinking the NAME Jesus may not be inspired ! It is a new name NOT known or ever uttered before 1605
plus or minus a few years.
Dear Kathy ca.
I do believe your going to be with the Lord Immanuel as named by Isaiah.
and I agree with your discription as what is what !
The rest of you above will have a Judgement day for your abominations against the Father God Almighty the Creator and his Son. wow to you !

And Roger Thornhill you invent the belief in your own mind "Reincarnation"
The way you say I believe as Kathy Ca. and then add this which is NOT in the holy Bible anywhere is an insult to her proclaimation.
You are included in the day of judgement for your lack of belief in the scripture. You see you all change it to fit your VERSION of God and the Lord his Son. Wow unto you !

I of course will be slamed here for my truthful remarks.. bring it on slackers !

I only have to answer to the Lord also known as Jesus or Yawashua.
Even many others in many different tungs, but he is Gods son.
"The word of God" whom came down to Earth and knew what he had to do for you and even thoe you do not deserve it ! He did it anyway !
There were over 600 eye witnesses who died defending the telling of the gospel within the first 35 years. Ya, like they would let them selves to be sawed in half or stoned to death and burned at the stake, and many other forms of murder all because the maybe just half ass believed that Jesus was real and was the Son of God..
There are more records in history for this event then any other known to man, but yet the faithless still try with all they can muster to attack this truth !

Ya'll should spend more time reading the King James version 1611 BIBLE !
and way less bull talk from you behind...


Peace be with you anyway !
I had to tell it as it is............. :yes:

[Flint]

I guess I'm basically with Anita here. I see life as a biological interlude, and I see consciousness (even roaches are conscious) as analogous to a program running on a computer. When the computer dies, the program stops. For me, this is quite ample. I can't find within myself any particular desire to have lived any prior lives, or to live any subsequent lives. In fact, I doubt I could ever understand why some people find insufficient the life they are fortunate enough to be intrigued by. It's as much as you choose to make of it.

So, like Anita, I strive to be the best person I can be, as well as I can understand these terms.

[nanna]

I do not think that "spirit" is defined by the physical substrate, but vice versa.



nanna

[Ought Six]

I believe that I am probably alive, and will probably die.

[LizardQueen]

H20 - Roger was agreeing with me, not with Kate CA.

And a simple statement of your own beliefs would have sufficed, rather than referring to others as "talking bull talk from you behind".

I will never understand why some Christians can't just simply state where they're at when asked without slamming those who disagree with them.

BTW, recommendations of non-Bible historical documentation of the type you refer to would be appreciated by me. I'm not a believer in using the Bible to prove the Bible but am always interested in reading non-Biblical translated source material that correlates to New Testament info. The only significant one so far that I've found is the Nag Hammadi library translation.

LQ/Tweak

[Chills]

I believe life IS. All life is one.

[Roger Thornhill]

H2O, your response to my simple statement is quite extraordinary.

I've always found that who people respond with such vehemence and vitriol do so because their own beliefs are clouded by doubt and uncertainty.

You might wish to reread some of the New Testament before working yourself into such a frenzied, angry tirade. And before you take it upon yourself to judge me and condemn my soul to the eternal fires, at least learn how to spell.

[H2O]

Oh your right LizardQueen !

I see that LQ abrev. Now...
My Bad....

Well sorry Roger Thornhill anyway .... I already posted the error so I will leave it as it is, to show my mistake..

About the other historical documentation you seek, its out there and I should put the time in to locate it for you. As it is thoe I have 3 websites to keep running and I will look for it and post it as a new thread in the near future,
The Bible is a worthy and good historical document. There is no other document that has been preserved across so many civilizations and each copy seems to back up the others without error and then there is the Deadsea scrolls. There is in the Deadsea scrolls one known as the Isaiah scroll which is 2400 years old + or - a few years. This scripture has not changed in all that time. This Isaiah scroll also was/is well preserved were many others are just fragments. There also is a vast amount of letters in the vatican city library that are not included in the Bible. This library is private and is mostly kept secret from the general public. There are many other letters and manuscripts around the world at your disposal. If you care about your soul which is at risk, I sugest that you seek out this on your own.
The Bible at one time included 81 books or more and over time the Powers that be have chossen to reduce this number to 66 books. Why ?
I think it is the work of those whom do not want you to come to the truth.
Why ?
The reason behind this is wealth,power,deception,and the Devil..
Is there a Devil?
You will find out the answer to that when you threaten his power hold over the lost masses. He will show you deceptions and even scare the crap out of you if it suits his goal. Enough on that.
Ask yourself why even the well educated evolutionist and scienctist with PHD's have come to believe there has to be a designer behind all of life as is known to man. Some of them make an error and except that there is a designer, but will not except the Creator belief as in the Bible. Why?
Because they just do not want to except that there wealth,power and knowledge is all worthless to your soul. You/they must submit to the Lord and give up the headstrong/stiffnecked self made easy beliefs and worship God. Those whom refuse to, do it at there own parell.
I can not make you or anyone else see it as I do and I know that.
---------------
YES there is a after life ! I believe for some that it will be only long enough for them to see there life flash before there eye's and then there will be the 2nd death!
Not, for me thank you very much... I know by my own research and life that the God in the Bible known as YHWH is the great Creator father !

[H2O]

I hear ya Rodger Thornhill...

I think you should continue your own studies of Scripture..
Please post the one that saids that we are Reincarnated !

Revelations Chapter 20 Verse's 13-15

13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Rodger Thornhill, is a good person and I meant no malice..
And he is correct I can't spell worth a hoot......


Peace be with you dude!

[Robert]

I’d say I’m around Tweak and Roger too.

I believe in reincarnation because I have personally experienced it, inquired into it and done so on my own terms, not someone else’s idea, book or whatever.

It’s not a “desire to have lived prior lives” as Flint suggests it is what I have observed for myself. If I had found nothing in my search of over thirty five years then I would have been happy to accept that. I had events well before any outside influences could contour or create that alternate reality.

As far as clinical work. There’s too much to ignore. Moody and Weiss for example. There are to many people who have flat lined and experienced the same or very similar events for us to dismiss reincarnation without seriously questioning it, inquiring into it. The work of George Anderson and the Buddhist system of selecting the next Buddha are interesting avenues to explore for those of you who would like to find out for yourselves if there is any validity to the premise.

I’m not isolating you here Flint but I wonder, coming from a family of atheists if you have ever put that aside and started with a clean slate? Read some of the work of Jung and others? Because that’s what I did. I came from a devoutly Catholic mother and I put that all aside and found out for myself. The problem is that you seem to me as afraid to inquire as the Christian who doesn’t want to look past his belief system. I wonder what you belief system would have been had you grown up in Christian home?

When the computer dies, the program stops. For me, this is quite ample.

Again, I’m not trying to single you out but your statement is indicative of someone who doesn’t want to inquire any further and while this is your right it is not different then the individual who clings to his book and doesn’t want to look any further.

The point of all this is the question, how many individuals have really inquired with an open mind as to what happens after the physical body is dead?
Can each of you say, I put my books aside, my preconceived ideas aside and inquired completely from within my self, explored from the core of my being regardless of what I have been told or what I believed I would find?

[Kathy.Ca]

Thanks for responding everyone. Was just curious? I know that down deep because of my belief, I don't really fear anything (even death). I truly love my belief because I know in my heart I will live forever and be perfect one day.

Just my belief because Jesus said that according to the bible and I believe it!

:)

[Darkimbolc]

As a Pan-Theist, I would have to say, you go where you belong. Good Christians and Jews wind up with YHWH. Good Muslims end up in Paradise. Heathens such as myself end up in the Summerlands, Valhalla, the Elysium Fields, and the like.

I do, however, also believe in reincarnation. So, coupled with the afterlife, I guess it could be summed up as "St. Peter's Truck Stop." You die, you go to your afterlife where you spirit rests and renews, then you come back.

[Mary]

I believe there is a Creator.

I believe we have no beginning and no ending.

I believe we are infinate and eternal.

I believe we do come back wiser than before.

I beleive whatever you send out into the world, you get back.

I believe love is *the* experience.

I believe ego tries to hold us down.

I believe the world is filled with good, you just have to look for it.

I believe all animals, insects, plants, trees can teach lessons if we'd learn to Observe them.

I believe it really is the journey not the destination that counts.

I believe in letting others have their own beliefs and never try to convert them.

Mary (no garden, no lamb)

[Delta Lady]

The Dalai Lama's Little Book of Wisdom.

[Robert]

H2O give it a rest, at the least take of the "I seek truth". It's approaching an oxymoron.

[SmartAZ]

Reincarnation? What a drab thing to look forward to! Go through this crap all over again? Oblivion would be a better offer! But the biggest problem with reincarnation is that it's a useless theory; we still have to live this life AS IF it's the only one we get.

Life after death? You're saying there is no death. Life after (blank). Some call that "the wheel of life". Sorry, that's not a wheel, it's a flat tire. Life after death is a useless theory - we have to live AS IF there is a death.

Reality is anything we have to deal with AS IF it's real.

[Robert]

Reincarnation? What a drab thing to look forward to! Go through this crap all over again? Oblivion would be a better offer! But the biggest problem with reincarnation is that it's a useless theory; we still have to live this life AS IF it's the only one we get.
Life after death? You're saying there is no death. Life after (blank). Some call that "the wheel of life". Sorry, that's not a wheel, it's a flat tire. Life after death is a useless theory - we have to live AS IF there is a death.

You haven’t said anything here except you don’t like the idea.

Reality is anything we have to deal with AS IF it's real.

Like ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’?

[SmartAZ]

"Hell" is derived from the same root as "hole". Hell is a grave, nothing more (contrary to the stories people make up about it). "Heaven" is three things: the space between the earth and the sky, all the bodies above that, and/or where God lives. We have no information about the third one. (Other cultures speak of other heavens, and I don't know about those.)

You have only responded to half my post. Care to discuss the other half?

[nanna]

Reality is anything we have to deal with AS IF it's real.


Or, put another way, anything we have to deal with AS IF it's real is Reality.

:D



nanna

[SmartAZ]

At last, somebody who agrees with me. I hardly know how to act! :D

[nanna]

Eh, sorry to disturb you.

;)


nanna

[Robert]

You have only responded to half my post. Care to discuss the other half?

Sure.

What a drab thing to look forward to!

As opposed to this anthropomorphic ‘god’ that banishes recalcitrant children to ‘hell’. Now that’s drab!

But the biggest problem with reincarnation is that it's a useless theory.

Proof?

Life after death? You're saying there is no death. Life after (blank).

This is what I’ve found so far, yes.

Go through this crap all over again?

Ok, now you’ve defined your life. Sorry it’s ‘crap’, mine isn’t.

[SmartAZ]

this anthropomorphic ‘god’ that banishes recalcitrant children to ‘hell’.
Proof?

[Robert]

Rob said.
this anthropomorphic ‘god’ that banishes recalcitrant children to ‘hell’.

Proof?

Exactly, you're making my point. The bible is a subjective book and the plethora of opinions about what it means could fill two oceans.

[SmartAZ]

Robert, I'm not making your point, I am exposing your lack of one. I offer documentation, you offer only your own subjective opinion not supported by anything at all. By definition, spiritual things cannot be proven, they can only be documented. And you reject the documentation because it conflicts with your opinion.

[Chills]

Robert, I'm not making your point, I am exposing your lack of one. I offer documentation, you offer only your own subjective opinion not supported by anything at all. By definition, spiritual things cannot be proven, they can only be documented. And you reject the documentation because it conflicts with your opinion.

SmartAZ

Just wondering.
Are you suggesting that ONLY documented spiritual things can be considered valid?

If so, what do you consider documentation? Would you consider oral records documentation, as in the case of the North American First Nations peoples and Inuits?

[SmartAZ]

Documentation is whatever you have. If your religion is passed down from your g'g'g'father, well, that is your documentation. Other people might or might not be convinced of its accuracy. It's a little easier to be confident in the accuracy of printed matter, and it's even better if there is some sort of check system like the jews used to be sure that the original text could be recovered from all copies, even when there was a mistake in the copy.

To recap:
- Science is anything that can be measured.
- Spirit is anything that can not be measured.
- We can not know anything about spirit unless some spirit reveals it to us by prophecy.
- There are three sources of prophecy: God, Satan, and man's own heart.

Documentation is required because changes can be introduced and we need to be able to verify sources. For example, just reading what the bible says will expose a lot of people who misremember verses, or quote what somebody else told them the bible says.

[Robert]

Robert, I'm not making your point, I am exposing your lack of one. I offer documentation, you offer only your own subjective opinion not supported by anything at all. By definition, spiritual things cannot be proven, they can only be documented. And you reject the documentation because it conflicts with your opinion.

The documentation you provide is not provable. It is subjective, full of contradictions and statements that don’t stand to reason. Half the people in Christianity go one way and the other half go another.
Remember The Inquisition was a biblical interpretation, so was Manifest Destiny.
Want to believe it? Go ahead. I don’t. I can give you the Bagavad Gita, do you believe it? It fits your criteria so you should.

[Robert]

Documentation is whatever you have. If your religion is passed down from your g'g'g'father, well, that is your documentation. Other people might or might not be convinced of its accuracy. It's a little easier to be confident in the accuracy of printed matter, and it's even better if there is some sort of check system like the jews used to be sure that the original text could be recovered from all copies, even when there was a mistake in the copy.

So how many books that have been handed down do you follow? Gita, Upanishads, The Iliad, The Odyssey?

To recap:
- Science is anything that can be measured.
- Spirit is anything that can not be measured.
- We can not know anything about spirit unless some spirit reveals it to us by prophecy.
- There are three sources of prophecy: God, Satan, and man's own heart.

Where are you getting this stuff? Proof?

We know about Satan? Now we’re back to the Inquisition. People thought they knew about Satan then too. Do you see how dangerous your thinking is. You’re using your book to judge people, using it as a weapon.

Documentation is required because changes can be introduced and we need to be able to verify sources. For example, just reading what the bible says will expose a lot of people who misremember verses, or quote what somebody else told them the bible says.

Verify them against what? You haven’t proven your book is the absolute truth yet.
People misinterpret? That’s you. You’re just as prone to misunderstanding and forgetting as anyone else.

[Chills]

Documentation is whatever you have. If your religion is passed down from your g'g'g'father, well, that is your documentation. Other people might or might not be convinced of its accuracy. It's a little easier to be confident in the accuracy of printed matter, and it's even better if there is some sort of check system like the jews used to be sure that the original text could be recovered from all copies, even when there was a mistake in the copy.

To recap:
- Science is anything that can be measured.
- Spirit is anything that can not be measured.
- We can not know anything about spirit unless some spirit reveals it to us by prophecy.
- There are three sources of prophecy: God, Satan, and man's own heart.

Documentation is required because changes can be introduced and we need to be able to verify sources. For example, just reading what the bible says will expose a lot of people who misremember verses, or quote what somebody else told them the bible says.


Thanks for your explanation.

I do not believe in god or satan and I am not sure what is meant by man's own heart, though I suspect it may mean conscience.

Interesting the way you laid it out though.

[H2O]

An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.

Robert, whats the hate about?
Peace and good tidings to you, your eyes are a window to your soul.

[Robert]

An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.

Robert, whats the hate about?
Peace and good tidings to you, your eyes are a window to your soul.

No hate at all but you tell people to read the Bible like they don’t have a mind of their own, have never read and have no comprehension. Remember, your comprehension and perceptions are just as fallible as the next persons.
It may be your ‘truth’ but it isn’t for everyone.

How would you feel if people told you to read the Vedas. Let people find their own way, they’re not blind. The Bible wasn’t written yesterday, I’ve read it. How many other books and philosophers have you read? The Quran, Gita, Nietzsche, Sartre, Lao Tse?

You say “I seek truth” under your name but you look through very narrow glasses. If you want to really seek truth then expand your horizons and also look beyond the Bible which is filled with contradictions and a lack of reason. Is there some beauty in the Bible? Sure but there is also a tremendous amount of hate, war and misogyny.


“An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.”

Now you want to judge ‘evil’? That’s what they did in the Inquisition, now your book is a weapon. Is this what you think your ‘god’ wants, to use him as a weapon against all that you disagree with? And in the next breath you say “peace and good tidings”. What is it? Do you want peace or to “send a cruel messenger”?

your eyes are a window to your soul.

Can you see my eyes? What does this have to do with anything? Think about what you are saying and telling people to do. Anyone can quote a passage. There is no ‘truth seeking’ in that then is there?

[Deb Mc]

Kathy,

My beliefs are very similar to yours. :) Though I do believe that Jesus' admonistion to "Love God with all your heart, mind and soul" and "Do unto others as you would have done to you" capstone the other ten commandments.

Here are a few links re: archaeological finds that support what is found in the Bible:


Parting of the Red Sea: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20040202/redsea.html

Check out the pics at this link: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33168


Tomb of Joseph found in Egypt?: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a016.html

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a027.html


Noah's Ark and the Flood: http://www.guardian.co.uk/netnotes/article/0,6729,368355,00.html


Other Biblical events & persons supported by archaeology:

http://www.christiananswers.net/archaeology/home.html

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a009.html


Lost Tribes of Israel: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/parfitt.html

[Anita]

Kathy said,

I don't intend on defending my belief here, just wondered what others really believed about life/death?,

and *I* think that her intention was that others shouldn't be asked to defend their beliefs either. Of course, AZ started in on her right away, followed by H2O with the whole "You're ALL damned except Kathy" post. :re:

So, from where *I* sit, Kathy has been the only Christian on this thread who behaves in a "Christlike" manner. She feels free to express HER beliefs, but she hasn't in any way violated Matthew 7: 1-5.

[SmartAZ]

Anita:
Of course, AZ started in on her right away
Anita, I am continually amazed by your accusations. I have never "started in" on anybody. I say what I have learned from the bible. If anybody feels that it applies specifically to them, I can only suggest that they refuse to admit it.

[Chills]

Deb Mc

Just want to thank you for the interesting links you posted.

I just read the one regarding the lost tribes in South Africa.
Was an interesting read.

I dont know about anyone else, but speaking for myself, I think at least some of the history related in the bible will have some authenticity. However, that in and of itself is not enough to convince me that the bible is the word of a god etc. Still it is all very fascinating and interesting.

[Deb Mc]

Chills,

You're welcome! :)

Mr. Parfitt actually wrote a book on the subject - it's called "Journey to the Vanished City". Published by Phoenix (Orion Books Ltd.), 1997. ISBN #: 0-75380-267-8. It's a fascinating read!

There are also two other books by another author, Nicholas Clapp, that you might also find interesting, as it ties in to Mr. Parfitt's investigation about the ancient Jewish diaspora into Yemen and Africa.

The two books in question are: "The Road to Ubar", and "Sheba", both by Nicholas Clapp. Published by Mariner Books, 1999 & 2002 (respectively). Their respective ISBN numbers are: 0-395-95786-9 and 0-395-95283-2.


As for personal beliefs, like Kathy, I'm not here to push people. We may not always agree as to what is the "right path", but it doesn't mean that we can't share info that all might enjoy/be interested in.

Wishing you all well...

[Deb Mc]

Ooops, adding a "P.S." :

Chills,

I was also attempting to add information re: "documentation" for what (speaking for myself only) a Christian finds as supporting evidence for the Bible. For me, I personally find archaeology as physical evidence to support what has been written in the Bible.

Some may not agree with that viewpoint, as it can sometimes be open to interpretation, but in regards to matters of faith it's probably the best we have to go on until the end times...

[SmartAZ]

For me, I personally find archaeology as physical evidence to support what has been written in the Bible.

Some may not agree with that viewpoint, as it can sometimes be open to interpretation, but in regards to matters of faith it's probably the best we have to go on until the end times...
FYI The bible says that fulfillment of prophecy is proof of its authenticity. As an example, God said he would forever blot out the name of Amalek, and no archeologist has ever found any reference to that name except the one in the bible.

[Deb Mc]

SmartAZ,

Evening! :)

I'm a newbie when it comes to Bible studies, so I'm in no position to debate with anyone (really!). However, my intention was to provide some links that might be useful to all in the discussion.

I can't speak for everyone, just myself, but it appears that there are varying levels of "need" for 'proof'. Some people might need one level of documentation, whereas others may find another level sufficient.

I'm not trying to get into the middle of the fray here, just trying to provide resources that may be helpful for positive discussion on the topic.

Fwiw...


Edited for clarification...

[Robert]

FYI The bible says that fulfillment of prophecy is proof of its authenticity. As an example, God said he would forever blot out the name of Amalek, and no archeologist has ever found any reference to that name except the one in the bible.

First this is circular reasoning. Using the book in question to establish the parameters used to prove its own authenticity.

Secondly, I can say this, ‘tomorrow it is going to rain” and indeed it does. Does this make everything else I say truth? Of course not. So while you may think the Bible has some truth in it you still haven’t established that the whole book is above reproach.
But my problem is that you tell people to ‘read your Bible’ as though it is the absolute ‘truth’ when you can’t prove it is. That’s the difference between you and someone who believes the Bible is the word of ‘god’ saying,” this works for me you might want to read it and see if you agree.”
We all have our theories. It is when we subject the world to those perceptions that chaos ensues.

[Chills]

Ooops, adding a "P.S." :

Chills,

I was also attempting to add information re: "documentation" for what (speaking for myself only) a Christian finds as supporting evidence for the Bible. For me, I personally find archaeology as physical evidence to support what has been written in the Bible.


Deb-- I see no problem with you using the added references to support your own faith in the bible. It lends creedence to it.

I also think no one has to defend ones beliefs or faith. There is no reason on earth why people of differing beliefs can not share what they belief and why.

I only mentioned my own lack of belief re- the bible..to emphasis my appreciation of the information you posted.

If I as non-believer find it interesting and fascinating, how much more would a believer?

Again Thank you.

[SmartAZ]

Rob, let me make this perfectly clear: it is not my responsibility to prove anything. I only offer what I know from the bible, with references so others can look it up for themselves. If they think it says something other than what I think then we can discuss it. If they refuse to believe, well, they have been told. My only responsibility is to tell people, not to persuade them to believe.

[Pepper]

For many years I didn't know Jesus Christ, or want anything to do with a God, that I thought was meaner than a rabid animal. Then one day "He" touch me.
My life has never been the same again. It is not something someone can explain
It is a supernatural event. You can read the Bible a million years, but if you never find salvation it will never be more than words to you. That was how it was for myself for many years. I know without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ is living inside my heart now. I admit I don't understand some of the things God allowed to happen in the Old Testament. But, one day I will. I am not afraid of death what so ever. And when my heart is heavy with burdens, I have someone to turn to that comforts me. When my life is full of joy, I have someone to turn to and rejoice with. I don't press my beliefs on no one. If they ask me about them I will tell them. My faith in Jesus Christ works for me. I have no regrets from asking Him to be my Lord and savior. When I look back on my life the only regret I have is it took me so long to come to Him.

I condemn no one for their beliefs. And I wish no one would condemn me for mine. Like I say, unless you know Him, there is no way you can understand Him or His Word. No matter how smart you are. For those of you who don't know Him, I really wish you could. But, that is your choice, I made mine.

Respectfully,
Pepper

[Flint]

It is only a theoretical ideal that repetitive copying retains perfect accuracy. In practice scribes are fallible, and not above massaging their copy to make it say things that they think (no doubt sincerely) the original document ought to have said. The most famous example of this, painstakingly documented by nineteenth-century German theologians, is the doctoring of New Testament history to make it conform to Old Testament prophecies. The scribes concerned were probably not wilfully mendacious. Like the gospel-makers, who themselves lived long after Jesus's death, they genuinely believed he had been the incarnation of Old Testament messainic prophecies. He 'must', therefore, have been born in Bethlehem, and descended from David. If the documents unaccountably failed to say so, it was the scribe's conscientious duty to rectify the deficiency. A sufficiently devout scribe would, I suppose, no more have regarded this as falsification than we do when we automatically correct a spelling mistake...

--Richard Dawkins (discussing problems with the veracity of old documents)

Making prophecies come true is really quite simple, when you get to make up the subsequent history as required.

[Kathy.Ca]

Kathy said,

,

and *I* think that her intention was that others shouldn't be asked to defend their beliefs either. Of course, AZ started in on her right away, followed by H2O with the whole "You're ALL damned except Kathy" post. :re:

So, from where *I* sit, Kathy has been the only Christian on this thread who behaves in a "Christlike" manner. She feels free to express HER beliefs, but she hasn't in any way violated Matthew 7: 1-5.

You got it right Anita, I was just asking about others and sharing my belief with others. Pretty simple! Noboby had to go further then that. :)

[SmartAZ]

Pretty simple! Noboby had to go further then that.
That never stops anybody. Too much is never enough! :D

[Anita]

Protestant Christianity became fractured into over 1,500 individual denominations, as individuals and groups began to interpret the Bible in their own unique ways. They continually formed new sects that they felt were closer to Jesus' intentions for the church.

Above quote is from this link. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_deno.htm)

So, you can SEE that Christianity has MANY "families", and even more subgroups within those "families". Many variations even exist amongst Christians [such as yourself] who choose to use Bullinger's writings [and maybe even the Companion Bible] to aid in translation of the Bible. ALL of them think they are translating correctly and that others are translating incorrectly.

For nonbelievers, or believers in other religions or philosophies, understanding cannot come from knowledge of Christianity's sacred script. That script applies to Christianity alone, and it's folly to take the position that these people simply haven't been told of Christianity's "truth", as though they've been living their lives in a remote jungle with no input.

I shouldn't have gotten involved in this; I realize it now. I apologize if you feel I've constantly attacked you, AZ; I'll ignore disparaging posts from now on, concentrating on those of interest to me.

[OnChaos]

I believe Jesus is the Christ and the Son of our Living God and attempt to conduct myself accordingly.

That said, with what I consider the comforting thought above, I travel through this life without a great deal of worry as to whether there is life after death. It makes no difference to me. The important thing is that when I get up in the morning I can look into the mirror and only have to wince at how far I've strayed from the path I wish to follow, dust my self off, attempt to return to the path and travel on. I know there's joy on the path, I know that there's sadness, hate, and a sundry of other little demons when I stray from it.

Christ is the light that illuminates the path I want to follow. When I think of the "greatest story ever told" I think of Christ. If I wanted to emulate someone, I can't think of a better choice.

[H2O]

Dear Robert

Take a chill pill or somrthing. I am well aware of all the other CRAP that is out there to read. The quote above, An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.

Is from the Proverbs

The other about yours eyes, refers to the way you see things,information and people.
The thought was that if you see my intentions as a way to subvert your beliefs or anyone else, then it is your mind/soul that see's it that way.

I hope to let you understand that as a man full off years and life that I have been down all the other roads of belief. If you say that you have read the Bible and understand it then I say to you sir, You do not !
No body fully understands the Bible. And when I say the Bible I do not refer to newer Bibles like the NIV or many other edited versions.
I refer to the complete Bible that contains 81 books and was first printed around 1535AD and later again with a more complete translation around 1611.
There are many reproductions claiming to be a 1611 bible. They are not !
In order to understand this issue you would have a few months of research on your hands dear Robert. ( Not meant in any condencending way )

As for Pagenism, and The Quran, Gita, Nietzsche, Sartre, and other like the satanic book of riturls and the Satanic bible. as well as The New Jerusalem Bible and about 100 other books.
I also have joined many organizations over the years, such as Chrishna,Budism,ocultism's of all kinds and as well as 14 or so different churches. I am aware of alot of beliefs and after a great deal of exploration I believe I have found the truth. I am a Soldier for the Lord !
There is and will always be Negitive energies at work ( Evils ) I am here not to annoy you, but to offer to whom ever will listen, the other side of the picture.
That indeed Jesus did live and was killed and did raise after the third day and was seen by many and that they did also beleive and went to there deaths without fear preaching the truth of the Gospelll of Jesus The Christ.

You can argue all that you fill the need to Robert, But I say to you this maybe has nothing about you, So why not let it go, dude !

You can start a thread and atract all those whom want Pagen type beliefs or Evolutionist or what ever.

I posted here and did make an error about to whom you were refering to and I have said that I am sorry. I did not notice the abrev. LQ and did post the error.
I read and post to this thread because I liked what Cathy Ca. had to say about her beliefs. I did not post here to argue with you sir.
I will hope you understand that My Eyes look for the GOOD not the bad in all things, but when I perciece there is lack of understanding and error or even a one sided view, I fill it is ok to put forth what I believe.
As for your belief, its all yours dude !
Now I mean this peace and Joy to you and yours !

[Robert]

I think Anita is right so I won’t comment further on this here as it’s out of place, a thread drift and unfair to others.
Bring your opinions to one of my threads and I will give you a reply.

[Deb Mc]

I believe Jesus is the Christ and the Son of our Living God and attempt to conduct myself accordingly.

That said, with what I consider the comforting thought above, I travel through this life without a great deal of worry as to whether there is life after death. It makes no difference to me. The important thing is that when I get up in the morning I can look into the mirror and only have to wince at how far I've strayed from the path I wish to follow, dust my self off, attempt to return to the path and travel on. I know there's joy on the path, I know that there's sadness, hate, and a sundry of other little demons when I stray from it.

Christ is the light that illuminates the path I want to follow. When I think of the "greatest story ever told" I think of Christ. If I wanted to emulate someone, I can't think of a better choice.


O.C. has it about right, the only difference, imo, is that life after death does mean a great deal to me. Imo, as Christians, we should strive to be good rolemodels (taking the mote out of our own eye first, before condemning others). None of us are perfect, and the only means of our salvation is through the Grace of God, the blood of Christ, which redeems us.

[Chills]

I hope to let you understand that as a man full off years and life that I have been down all the other roads of belief. If you say that you have read the Bible and understand it then I say to you sir, You do not !

As for Pagenism, and The Quran, Gita, Nietzsche, Sartre, and other like the satanic book of riturls and the Satanic bible. as well as The New Jerusalem Bible and about 100 other books.
I also have joined many organizations over the years, such as Chrishna,Budism,ocultism's of all kinds and as well as 14 or so different churches. I am aware of alot of beliefs and after a great deal of exploration I believe I have found the truth.


H2O

Apparently you have found the truth before and just as apparently you have been wrong before, according to your own words.

Seems to me that what you actually believe is that you are right and everyone else who disagrees is wrong, and I would venture to guess that this was true at any time you felt you had found the truth along the way.

Just some speculations.

[H2O]

nope !

Chriiatian haters bash me in the Dungeon !
Thats all here for me on this thread !

[Chills]

nope !

Chriiatian haters bash me in the Dungeon !
Thats all here for me on this thread !
:confused:


Quote:
Originally Posted by H2O
I hope to let you understand that as a man full off years and life that I have been down all the other roads of belief. If you say that you have read the Bible and understand it then I say to you sir, You do not !

As for Pagenism, and The Quran, Gita, Nietzsche, Sartre, and other like the satanic book of riturls and the Satanic bible. as well as The New Jerusalem Bible and about 100 other books.
I also have joined many organizations over the years, such as Chrishna,Budism,ocultism's of all kinds and as well as 14 or so different churches. I am aware of alot of beliefs and after a great deal of exploration I believe I have found the truth.


Chills--

H2O

Apparently you have found the truth before and just as apparently you have been wrong before, according to your own words.

Seems to me that what you actually believe is that you are right and everyone else who disagrees is wrong, and I would venture to guess that this was true at any time you felt you had found the truth along the way.

Just some speculations.